This is one of those scenarios where you have to realize that what women say they are doing and what they are really doing are two different things. Of course women SAY that they are going out just to have fun and hang out with friends because this allows them to control the situation, for lack of a better word. If they get dressed up and go to the club and no guy pays attention to them, well, that’s OK, they were just there to hang out with their friends and have fun. 
But do you really think if one of them meets a friendly, funny, affable guy that they are going shoot him down because they are out with their friends? Of course not.
You are misunderstanding the comparison. He’s not saying that the woman is the steak or the movie. He’s saying that the newbie PUA’s techniques are the steak and the movie. The woman is the person eating the steak or the person watching the movie.
I agree with DigitalC. This whole discussion reminds me of 30-page threads about the arcane mystifying complexities of weight loss. At a certain point, it just looks like a bunch of people making something that is actually pretty straightforward needlessly convoluted.
Take what I’m saying with a grain of salt, but I don’t think the problem really is that some men have trouble picking up women. It’s that they have a hard time picking up women that they’re most attracted to. They could get laid, but they don’t because they are pining after the “hottie” types and not their socially awkward female counterparts.
And so this is the point of the discussion where guys protest: “So we have to stay in our place, right?” No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying some perspective is in order. How do the other ~7 billion people on the planet manage to get laid? Are we really supposed to believe that social ineptitude is such a problem in men that huge swaths of them would have to endure sexless lives if not for PUA books? I just find that hard to believe that this would be the case.
Social ineptitude might prevent men from sleeping with women who value sophistication and charm, but you know what? Having a plain face and cankles might keep women from sleeping with men who value prettiness and petiteness. Neither is exactly a tragedy. But oddly, many guys fault women for having their own preferences while at the same time defending to the death their own preference towards physically attractive women.
It’s not a tragedy, but women with plain faces try to combat it by putting on makeup, fake eyelashes, etc, just like some men are learning PUA techniques. They are both using techniques that will enable them to catch someone above their natural “station” in life.
Low desirability men and women can simply lower their standards and to get laid easily, and it won’t be a tragedy, as you say. But what’s wrong with some of them using their brains to increase their natural level of attractiveness to the other sex in hopes of getting laid with someone better than their natural level of attractiveness would allow?
First of all, this is just not true. There are guys who just don’t know how to make a move on a woman. Not a hot woman or an average woman, any woman.
Second of all, anything that breaks down the barrier of “hot” woman being unapproachable and “average” woman being approachable is a good thing, I think.
Questions that all anti-PUA people are afraid to answer and which make them very, very angry:
What is the difference between PUA’s and the advice they sell to women in magazines like Cosmopolitan?
What makes PUAs more fake than women getting breast implants?
When a man is out trying to get laid using PUA techniques how is this any worse than a woman dolling herself up to do the same? How is one more fake than the other?
Ah, the sheer misogyny of even daring to ask such questions!!! 
I should be hung for this!
Cept that’s not at all what i said. You cut off the important part, the part that helps an individual guy who isn’t having much luck. Socializing with people will make you better at being social, being social will get you laid. It is not a complicated concept that requires an instruction manual.
Well I go by the logic that we can go to a bar we’ve never been to before, chat up a waitress we’ve never met before, and she’ll like us enough to come chill with us for a bit as she does her rounds and chat about her lame/creepy customers while at other tables she just breezes away as soon as possible, and will often give us free shooters/drinks when we’re not even drinking or tipping anything unusual.
There’s a customerssuck.com, not a customersrule.com because no one really runs around going “omg I met the most normal friendly person the other night!!”
But if you’re determined to believe that any guy who think staff like him is delusional then I don’t see any way I can really convince you.
Ya, I think generally people who don’t understand the problem some guys have, haven’t met really bad cases before. Hell, one of my best friends is a prime example. He’s 29, got his life together, is a total catch, and he’s dated one girl in his entire life, for 2 months. He has literally not been naked with a woman in 5+ years, at the prime of his life. It’s not because he doesn’t leave his computer room, he comes out every single weekend with us. But he’s been so socially conditioned to be a gentleman nice guy that girls just don’t see him as “sexy material”. He has so much unwiring to do in his head before he can rewire it in an attractive way that he may be alone for a long time, if not the rest of his life.
And he HAS a ton of female friends, and meets new girls all the time. If you met him, you’d think “why in the world would THIS guy have a problem attracting girls??”
One good part about PUA is that often the guys getting into it are “nice guys” who just don’t know how to attract girls. So a lot of time you end up with guys who are super nice, but know how to be a little “bad boy” once in a while to turn a girl on. VS an actual “bad boy” who is a legitimate asshole that treats women badly and ends up in jail and shit…A lot of PUAs turn into the “bad boy with a heart of gold” because underneath they still have the “nice guy” chivalry they were raised with, which is something very attractive to a lot of women.
Like I will call a woman out if she’s doing something silly like trying to pressure me into buying her a drink, but I was raised all gentlemanly so at the same time I’ll hold the door for her, help her put her jacket on when we leave, make sure she has a safe/sober ride home if we’re not hooking up, etc. Whereas a legitimate “bad boy” through and through won’t give a shit about her.
What Argent Towers said.
Yes. The world must be a very un-funny place to you, hey?
Oh it’s very easy to get laid. I could bring a girl home every single night I go out if I went for whichever girl was horny. But there’s nothing wrong with wanting to go for what you’re attracted to. We could all work at McDonald’s to pay the bills, but a lot of people choose to go for more instead of settling for what’s easy/convenient. Plus if you think about it from the girl’s perspective, would you really want to be with someone who’s with you just because you were “there” and not because they’re actually into you? That’s pretty cruel and unfair to the girl.
(although again, some guys give off such an asexual vibe because they don’t understand basic rules of attraction, that even their “socially akward female counterparts” don’t want them…those girls want the football quarterback because they grew up watching movies like Twilight where their prince will come along even if they’re a plain Jane)
Divorce rates are pretty epic these days, and the amount of people out there cheating on their significant others is phenominal, often people you wouldn’t expect it from. But usually they settled for someone out of convenience instead of desire…flash-forward down the road and you’ve got a broken home with children getting screwed over in the middle of it all.
When you find someone you’re into, why would you bother cheating? You’ve found someone who in your mind is better than everyone else.
PUA teaches you to view women as women. Under all her make-up and push-up bras and everything, she’s just another human being like anyone else. She has quirks and faults and problems and that’s okay, everyone does.
VS the nice guy who puts women with push-up bras up on a pedestal as perfect goddesses and are totally disillusioned and angry at them for not living up to the silly notion that they’re supposed to be perfect because they look nice.
I’m as friendly with a cheerful out-going ugly girl as I will with a done-up hot one or as I am with guys. It’s just when I’m actually attracted to the girl, I’ll throw in some stuff that makes her see me as a sexual person.
Being social is awesome and it can definately help if you run into a girl who jumps your bones, but it won’t guarantee you getting laid. I know guys who’ve been IN BED with a girl, who clearly wants them, she’s done all the work leading up to it, and the guy just spoons her for the night because he can’t tell if she likes him or not (I wish I was kidding about this, haha one of my good buddies is notorious for this). You have to have met a few guys who are surrounded by girls who all view him as just another girlfriend to understand that one. I’ve met a TON of them over the years and it’s the same story every time…being attractive and being social don’t go hand in hand.
I’m not gonna’ lie, you say some crazy shit dude haha but this is a good post that brings up pretty solid questions. I’d be interested to see the answers to each of these as well.
The thing is as a PUA I don’t fault women for any of that stuff. Do I WANT to meet a woman who’s read an article like “10 ways to attract that guy you like?” Hell ya, why wouldn’t I want to meet a woman who’s confident and knows how to attract me? I’m not really into fake boobs, but if a girl has them I don’t think any less of her than I do of someone who gets liposuction or works out every day to keep a 6-pack, they’ve made choices to try to be what they consider their most attractive. I love a girl who throws on a pair of heels even though I know her legs don’t really look like that in flip-flops, and throws on sexy make-up even though I know her face won’t really look like that when she washes it off. Why would I fault her for trying to be attractive?
“Ohhhh no!! I’m onto your tricks, woman! You have a push-up bra on and MAKE-UP!! And you’re being flirty!! fuck THAT!! I don’t want any flirty women who turn me on!! Get away from me, you can’t trick me into sleeping with you!!! grrr!! I’m going for that plain Jane natural girl over there who sits in a corner looking bored and being shy and oozing self-confidence issues!!”
It sounds silly when I say that, so why doesn’t it sound as silly when a girl says the same about a PUA who’s well-groomed, takes care of his body/life, knows how to flirt and be social, etc.?
- TWTTWN
But what about the individual guys (like the ones I described) who (1) are social, and (2) can’t get laid?
Or are you denying that there are any such guys?
pdts
Not sure where you’re going with this. Is it ok to be a nice guy as long as you’re not a gentleman? What, specifically, does your friend have to unlearn?
Well, yeah.
What’s the alternative? You think it’s some kind of human right that somebody must let you get all up in it? You’re not entitled to sex. That’s what this all boils down to.
A rough list off the top of my head:
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He was taught not to draw attention to himself because that’s obnoxious behavior. He has to learn that it’s okay to draw attention to yourself in a positive way, that’s attractive.
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He was taught not to argue with others because that’s rude and could hurt someone’s feelings if he doesn’t agree with them. He has to learn that it’s okay to stand by your beliefs and not apologize for them or change them just because someone else disagrees. In the end, people respect this and it’s attractive.
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He was taught not to intrude on anyone’s personal space because that’s creepy. He has to learn that there are situations, when someone is attracted to you, where it’s okay to touch another human being.
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He was taught to speak quietly and not boss other people around. He has to learn that it’s okay to speak loud and assertively, and to take the lead in situations whether it’s helping his group of wishy-washy friends decide what movie to go see, or whether it’s handling the logistics of a date and saying “We’re going to get Chinese food. I’ll pick you up at 8.” instead of “So where do YOU wanna’ eat?” Confidence and the ability to lead and make decisions are attractive qualities.
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He was taught to second-guess himself and his decisions at all times because it’s obnoxious to think he’s always right. He has to learn that it’s okay to make a decision and go with it. It may not be the right decision, but he’ll learn to recover from mistakes and it’s better than not making a decision at all. Decisive men are attractive, they know what they want and choose a plan of action.
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He was taught to treat women like princesses, buy them drinks to talk to them at a bar, send them flowers on v-day to admit their secret crush on a co-worker, listen to all their boy problems and hope that one day they come around and like him. He has to learn that stuff like sending flowers is what you do when you’re IN a relationship, not before you get to it, because often it’s needy and scares the girl off (there are obviously cases where it works, but it’s rare in comparison).
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He was taught to be embarrassed by his hobbies, career, etc. if they aren’t “cool” things so he shouldn’t be proud of them or expect them to attract women. He has to learn that the things he thinks are cool are things women will think are cool if he’s confident about it and legitimately takes pride in them. It’s attractive when a man isn’t ashamed of himself.
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He was taught to pretend to be interested in things a woman he likes is interested in because the commonalities will make her like him. He has to learn that it’s okay to be different and that women can tell when a guy is just faking it and they respect a guy who will admit “I don’t know anything about that, but it’s interesting and I like to hear you talk about it” instead of “oh ya, I’m a rocket scientist too, I’m always sciencing those rockets and stuff…” faking it. It’s attractive to have your own personality instead of trying to change yourself to be who you think she wants.
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He was taught to logicize his way into a woman’s heart because people are rational logical beings and if he just explains to her the checklist of why he’s a good catch (and he IS!), she’ll realize that she SHOULD be with him instead of the “bad boy” she’s chasing. A community saying is “Change her mood, not her mind.”
There’s lots more. And these are things he’s done for 29 years, so unwiring it and replacing it with new teaching or tweaking the old into something more benefitial and attractive is extremely difficult because not only is he going against 29 years of wiring but AS he’s trying to rewire himself he’s STILL getting flak for it by society who demonizes him for daring to learn that evil pick-up stuff.
- TWTTWN
If we’re going to compare apples to apples, let’s stick with behaviors. Makeup on women is not comparable to adopting a whole set of behaviors to mimic a personality that you don’t naturally have. Makeup has more in common with grooming than it does with PUA. Unless yall are going to start calling men who shave and wear styling gel in their hair phony, let’s let it go.
(And yes, women with fake breasts get laughed out for being phonies all the time. Search some threads on this board.)
A Plain Jane type could probably get laid more often if she acted more giggly, helpless, and sexual provocative in a seemingly innocent manner (e.g. allowing herelf to have “maldrobe malfunctions” while dancing). Maybe you wouldn’t judge her for going to such lengths to get laid (I kind of doubt that though), but at the same time, you wouldn’t expect her to go online and brag about this buffoonery, would you?
I’m glad you found something that helps you get what you want, but I get the sense that you want us to be impressed by the whole world that PUA has opened up to you. So let me ask you: if a woman got breasts implants to get laid, would you be all that impressed when she said it worked?
Poor Plain Jane. Can’t catch a break. Guess she should get breast implants and start being giggly.
By this logic, poor people should also “know their place” because nobody is entitled to make money.
That’s not what I said. I have no opinion on what men who aren’t getting laid ought to do. That wasn’t what I was talking about.
I wasn’t commenting on what people who can’t get laid need to do. I thought you were asking for evidence that “the grand majority of the human race has absolutely no problem getting laid”, which was also in the paragraph that you quoted.
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail.
It strikes me that if there were some alternative to pickup for people like your 29yo friend, it would make finding his own confidence and assertiveness a somewhat more straightforward process. As it is, an awful lot of what he has to overcome seems to be part of a long-term, closely-held worldview.
AFAICT, pickup says the problem is how you’re coming off, but explains it in terms of how you know yourself. Changing that, or even just “acting out” the change, is a long, serious slog of lifework. Plus, he’ll have to carry the extra weight of pretending to be confident and self-possessed all along the way.
Yeah, sure, as long as knowing your place is the same as not being a panhandler whose shtick it is to assault anybody nearby who has a little money, and call them bitches and contemplate their receiving their comeuppance if they don’t show you a little compassion by giving you whatever you want.
Have you followed the exchange that led to him making that comment? What exactly is your objection?
You can’t really compare something like money with friendship/relationships/sex. It’s not all that difficult to set up a soup kitchen. But if no one feels like having sex with one particular person, what exactly are you supposed to do?
My point is that people have to work at getting laid just like they have to work at everything in life. What’s so tough to understand about this? Nothing in life is free. Nobody has an objective “right” to anything. “Rights” are a concept that we thought up to govern our idea of a civil society.