For those interested, this is a website all about applying the principles of “Game” to long term monogamous relationships:
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
Not recommending it, have barely skimmed it. Just passing it on.
Thing is when you read a pickup in text or hear it described it sounds horrible:
So this girl tried to walk away from a guy and he grabbed her and demanded “Wait wait wait, have dinner with me.” and this girl politely said “No.” turning him down. He then badgered her with “C’mon, have dinner with me.” and proceeded to tell her about his place on the beach interrupting her every time she tried to refuse. At the same time he GRABS her shopping basket forcibly keeping her there as he aggressively pushes for the date. At one point he pokes her in the forehead with his hand. He then threatens her with embarrassment telling her that he’ll scream and cause a scene. She begs him not to and he continues to hold her shopping basket and tells her flat out that he’ll embarrass her in public. He then DRAGS her around the store by her shopping basket telling her “Come with me” as she begs him “No, no please!!” He then shouts out to people around them, accusing her of stealing his basket to embarrass her. Then she finally gives in and he yanks the basket out of her hand, dumps everything on the floor and forcibly drags her by the arm out of the store.
Like, holy shit, I just described a what’s practically a rape scene. Except in practice it looks like:
…if that looks like abuse/rape/misogyny etc. to you, we’d have very different views on what flirting looks like.
So this other guy sees a girl he wants a date with in her car, and he jumps on the hood of the car, pretending to be hit by it. As she freaks out he gets up and demands her number under the ruse of getting it for insurance purposes. She calls him an asshole and he ignores it and tries to flirt with her, and makes dirty innuendo. He then holds out his hand expectantly demanding she shake it back and introduce herself. He then makes fun of her name, calls her a let-down, tells her he’s got a boner, offers to forget her running him over only if she goes out with him. She says no, and he says “HEY. Woah!!” and when he realizes the threat of legal action won’t get him a date with her, he tells her he’s going to seduce her. He then pushes aggressively setting a place and time for their date and warns her to get there early before he wets himself. Then TAUNTS her as she drives off.
What a horrible asshole. Except it looks more like:
I’m not defending Roissy per say, I think he makes some good points but says and words things for the most shock value possible. But a lot of the controversial principles, when applied, look like plain old normal flirting and not some evil misogynistic puppet-string twirling. This is why when people are like “Well I’d never fall for THOSE tricks!!” it’s like, really? Because it looks like playful flirting like in those clips in real life. You would snub that? Well hey, whatever your tastes are, good luck to ya.
- TWTTWN
I don’t have to try, it’s inherent in your posts. YOU set the priority in the sentence.
Bragging about introducing a virgin into bondage. Hell, just the constant “virgin dropping” in your “exploits”. The frequent references to “this girl I was fucking”.
You game everything. It’s inherent in your exploit story telling. Bragging about being able to socially dodge fights.
You even apply the same superficial techniques to these conversations, stroking the few that reply with nods that a lot of what you’re saying rings true to them, and trying to isolate the critics.
You don’t even have the ability to introspect because you’re too busy responding to everyone on a superficial basis. And because you do, you simply try to redefine the world in terms of that shallow strategy. Closing the loop - the means work well, so they should BE the ends.
Okay okay, wait a minute here. You know I’ve been a big supporter of you and generally am in agreement with what you’ve posted. But I can’t just let this one go. You really believe what Mel Gibson is doing in that scene you linked to would work? I have to seriously question that. It’s possible that a guy could pull it off with a woman who already liked him and had some prior history with him, but even that, I have my doubts about. I honestly don’t see anything remotely charming about Gibson’s delivery - he sounds mentally unhinged.
The Duchovny scene is much more believable (except for getting hit by a car at the beginning, but that’s obviously a bit of comedy.)
I’m not bragging (hell I don’t even like going for virgins), I’m using examples from my experience. If this were a thread about hiking up mountains and I had climbed a ton of mountains and my stories started with “when I was climbing in the Himalayan mountains…” would you get as upset over that? Is it because the topic involves sex that you’re freaking out?
Well shit, I guess no one has ever agreed with anyone or defended their points against critics without being an evil puppet master? If I laugh at a joke or get sad when I hear bad news is that part of some mastermind plot too?
- TWTTWN
yep, it goes down just like that. I’ve done it a bunch.
“we should hang out, give me your number :D”
“but I don’t even know you!”
“that’s why we should go out, so we can get to know eachother. 555…?”
“lol you’re ridiculous!”
“ridiculously awesome. Say more numbers, 403…?”
“lol I can’t!!”
“I don’t think those numbers are on my phone, here you try. (hand her the phone with the number entry up and 555 in”
“omg I can’t believe I’m doing this”
“sure you can. I’m very cute, you clearly have good taste. ;)”
Then you txt her and have her save the number when it comes up. Txt her later that night or the next day, run some basic txt game, push for the date, meet up again, build comfort, get to know eachother, have sex. Easy peasy.
I do this a lot and it works fine. The trick is believing that she’ll say yes with totally unshakable confidence and smiling and not getting flustered when she says no. What you feel, she feels so if you believe she should give you her number she will. It’s showing you know what you want and that you’re persistent in a fun flirty way. She has to resist a bit to not seem easy, it’s just basic Anti-Slut Defense
Keep in mind you do this when you can read that she’s interested. Thus where calibration comes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT2hvRipRSM - here’s a live hidden camera pickup. This chick doesn’t seem mortified or abused or a dumb drunk bar slut or anything. It’s all rock solid confidence.
- TWTTWN
Remember what I said about Jesus and being quoted out of context…
Either your experience is with all virgins, or you’re citing the ones with virgins more often. So either you’re lying about not targeting virgins, or you’re bragging about the experiences with virgins disproportionately. My guess is because you can’t resist the brags.
I’m going to start pointing out your obvious games here:
You play the “prude” card when you have no evidence other than this thread about my perspective on sex. This is a childish tactic.
Game #2 is the “caricature the other guys position”. Funny thing is, it’s barely an exaggeration. You are a self-admitted manipulator. And I’d have relatively little problem with this if you restricted the practice to the proper arenas.
But instead, you practice it everywhere and advocate that everyone play the superficial game because real commitments mean the potential for more serious problems. And your techniques includes a substantial focus on conflict evasion.
And you still don’t get it. I’ve said it many times now that you’re not a mastermind. That’s what that word “superficial” is supposed to mean to you.
You don’t plot. That would imply a strategic goal when you have none. You practice tactics that let you score in target rich or unprotected environments.
I can’t believe what I’m seeing here. The post above doesn’t match up with a single thing TWTTWN has been saying. A lot of it also doesn’t make any sense. What are the “proper arenas”? Are you saying that people should confine their skills to one specific area only? What is the sense in that? Everyone - everyone - practices some manipulation in their lives. What is the sense in not using it in an area outside the sexual arena if you know it’ll give you a favorable outcome? Why should anyone handicap himself in life deliberately?
TWTTWN, that was an interesting video. Do you know what preceded it, if anything? Was there a conversation before the interaction? Or did the interaction begin when the video began?
That guy looked pretty conventionally handsome. Do you think that same exact tactic would work with a dorkier, fatter and uglier guy, or would that guy have to take a different tactic?
Proper arenas means places people expect to get hit on. This guy has suggested that even churches are hunting grounds.
Yes, everyone does a little manipulation. Not everyone advocates manipulation as a lifestyle and even goes so far as to explain why a superficial approach like these PUA “kata” is really better for everyone given the troubles more conventional relationships have. “Everyone” cheats, steals and lies with varying degrees of frequency. Usually we as a society don’t encourage them to adopt those as SOPs.
And the reason you don’t use it everywhere? Ethics. Morals. Yes, those things are “handicaps”. But civilized societies seem to like folks practicing them.
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My christian parent’s always told me that the only place they’d allow me to meet a girl was in church.
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Putting a restriction on meeting people only in designated areas (usually the scummy ones) is the stupidest thing ever. Why doesn’t this apply to meeting friends, business partners, etc. People who are successful meet other people everywhere. There is nothing unethical about meeting a new business client outside of the office, for example.
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The point of this thread is to talk about PUAs. He’s not bragging, he’s giving concrete examples of what works in response to accusation that it doesn’t. Yes, it’s true he enjoys it… but this is sex we’re talking about. It’s enjoyable. Heaven forbid someone suggest they enjoy sex.
If I’m citing them it’s because it’s relevant to whatever the point I’m making is. In the bondage chick’s case I mentioned it to point out that she hadn’t experimented with that stuff before so that when she started dating a serious boyfriend after me she was forced by shame/fear to pretend to be innocent again.
There’s nothing TO brag about. Have you ever been with a virgin? They suck in bed and have a bunch of hang-ups about sex to get over. There’s nothing awesome about that, that’s why I tell them they dont want me to be their first and bail if I find out their virgins. If YOU consider having sex with a virgin as something bragworthy…well that wouldn’t surprise me since it sounds like you have hangups with sex to me.
Well of course, cause you read the worst into everything I do
You just said I was plotting against you and targeting virgins. Now you say I don’t plot or have a strategic goal. Which is it already?
The interaction started there, they made eye contact and he acted on it. You can even see him almost trip on a rock or something as he flags her down haha 3 Secod Rule, act right away. This isnt an uncommon pickup at all, one of my favorite openers when a girl makes eye contact with me (Indictor of Interest) is to stick my arm out or lightly grab her upper arm as he passed and go “woah woah woah hold up, you can’t look at me like that and NOT say hello. 
hi, I’m TWTTWN.” and hold my hand out to shake. The eye contact let me know she was interested so I know it’ll go well but I test it further by lightly holding her hand after the handshake to see if she’ll pull it away or not (kino compliance test, if you were a hobo she wouldn’t shake your hand or would pull it away quickly). The guy in this vid does that, you can see they hold hands for a while. The general rule used to be “you can kiss her when you’ve got 3 iois” so there’s eye contact and kino compliance so far. If he gave me another ioi (playing with her hair, asking me questions about myself, etc) odds are good I wouldn’t be rejected going for the kiss (in a fun way). I like to wait till she gives me her number and then point at my cheek and say “Kiss to remember you by” and then do the cheesy turn-at-the-last-second so it’s a lip kiss, a quick “can’t believe you fell for that ;)” as she giggles and off I go on my way to txt her later.
Most guys wouldnt stop the girl though, especially not by daring to (lightly) touch her arm and pull her back. And most wouldn’t notice the subtle iois let alone act on them. This is like, a standard quick pickup for me though.
And I’m not a 6’4" law student with a chisled jaw like the guy in the video haha it’s really easy to attribute it to his looks and say “well that only works for him” but looks play such an insignificant part of attraction for women that it’s hard to process it. One company head said he wouldn’t even NOT hire a good looking guy as a pickup instructor because it’s just irrelevant.
If you ignore his looks for a sec, what is there that he’s doing: he’s acting instantly/spontaneously so he’s alpha and doesn’t hesitate (vs the guy working up the nerve to approach for 10 min because he’s scared and not self-assured). He uses a commanding tonality “come here” “give me the phone” etc. He stands out hardcore from the crowd by talking to her mom etc no guy has EVER done that to this girl before so she’s mindblown. He teases her telling her mom that they were BOTH looking at eachother and think the other is cute (this is like my “you can’t look at me like that and not say hi” one, I’m calling her out on being attracted to me). He’s charmingly persistent. He’s 100% in his own frame and believes he’ll get the number. He’s not afraid to touch her. He demonstrates high value by dropping in that he’s a law student, which also builds comfort since they go to the same school. He doesn’t get all bent out of shape when she won’t stop (“why don’t you like me!!! :(” style like a whiny needy guy). And it all happens super fast, he goes for the number as early as possible.
So ya, he’s good looking. But he’s displaying a shitload of alpha characteristics and reading iois and calibrating and that’s what’s building the attraction. If he had gone up and said “hi umm so uhh what’s your name? Cool, so uhh do you go to school here? Cool, uhh what class are you taking? That’s a good class…so uhh can I have your number?” (that’s how a lot of guys sound hitting on girls haha). She may have given it to him if she liked his look but the % chance would be waaaaaay less likely and if he wasn’t confident like that he’d probably fuck it up before getting anywhere near the bedroom.
I’ve been out with friends with missing teeth, bad acne, receding hairlines, etc who can do this stuff. It comes down to being congruent (unshakable frame) and confident. What you feel, she feels. If you’re self-conscious about your weight, height, teeth, etc she’ll pick up on that vibe (women are very intuitive and have a deep sense of enpathy in general because they communicate on emotional levels more than men), so she’ll feel like your weight, height, teeth are bad things. If you reframe it in your head and can approach thinking “hah she’s going to LOVE me, I’m a big guy who can protect her and she can wrap her arms around all this awesomeness” or “my bald head looks awesome I look like Jason Statham!”, your weight or baldness isn’t going to be an issue unless she specifically hates fat guys (but most girls aren’t that picky…they may have an ideal Brad Pitt in mind that they’d LIKE but they’re not opposed to other guys because it’s not about the physical looks to them, it’s about the alpha vibe. That’s why girls will swoon over the most random guys at times (old actors, politicians, etc) who aren’t traditionally good looking but “there’s just something about him”).
Russel Brand, Jack Black, Sean Connery, Al Pacino, Seth Rogan, Bill Clinton…these aren’t guys who are tall with 6-packs, but they’re guys who have massive frame control and rock solid confidence (whether it’s the Connery/Pacino alpha style or the Russel/Black/Rogan “I’m confident enough to make fun of my weird looks” style). You probably know a guy or two in your life who’s the life of the party and gets girls despite his looks. This is really frustrating for the jacked up body-builder guys who don’t get why their muscles don’t equal them getting girls…“must need another 0.3” on my bicep!!"
You’re still on the church thing? I don’t recall you ever addressing where I cited examples of dating advice columns suggesting church as a place to meet someone to date and that churches HOLD singles events. I’m not religious so I wouldn’t go to something like this but it’s a completely viable spot to meet someone and start a relationship.
- TWTTWN
AlienVessels, you’re really coming off as hostile. If you have a problem with TWTTWN, take it to the pit, eh?
I’ve stopped reading this thread some time ago, without taking the time to respond to the posts The Who had made to me, which date from a month ago. I wanted to but it takes me time to write a good post and I gave up before the end. I wonder if I should go back and answer them, or if this thread has moved too much from then and it’s not relevant anymore. Basically, The Who, will you respond if I answer very old posts from you?
This said, these threads about dating techniques just depress me. The techniques The Who seems to be espousing are things I just cannot see myself do. It’s just not who I am as a person. I find them slimy, but according to The Who they are the things women want me to do but just cannot admit. So what do I do? For the men who just don’t find all this appealing, are they doomed to solitude forever?
I’m female and I don’t think he’s posted anything slimy. In person, he might be charming, might be annoying.
Not at all. What women really want you to do (IMO) is value yourself.
I have a problem with the views he is advocating. If he’s going to continue posting his little manifestos, I’m going to point out the hypocrisy in the examples he’s giving.
If you have a problem with my posts, you’re welcome to pit me.
Have a nice day! 
Of course she hadn’t tried bondage, she was a virgin. (And a preemptive puhleeze to anyone tempted to play the obvious rejoinder.) She didn’t have a baseline of experience to compare and now that’s her default, which you admit causes her problems in subsequent relationships. (And if I recall, you claimed an ethic of leaving them better than you found them.)
I don’t consider it bragworthy. You apparently do because a disproportionate number of your examples include references to virgins. Again you’re playing the “prude” card. This is about what you’ve said, not about me.
I don’t read the worst into everything you do. I have no doubt there’s some good stuff you’ve done, if only because even casual relationships generally involve doing good for the other person.
I never used the word plot. That’s you playing your little games again. I’m coming directly at you and you’re doing what you’d do when that happens in your scenarios. Playing the social game and deploying countermeasures. That’s tactics, not strategy.
I’m not claiming you target virgins. I’m claiming you play the “I scored a virgin” card because you get bragging rights with some people. These multiposts of yours scream “look at what I can do!”
I’m on the church thing because it is skeevy to go into a church using your PUA techniques. Churches ARE reasonable places to start relationships with people that share the assumptions of those churches and gatherings. You don’t. Your system is primarily about getting laid, and you specifically avoid long term committed relationships.
Ya, go nuts! I’m pretty much just here to participate in pickup/dating/relationships threads so any questions or topics you’d like me to cover, shoot!
They may one day run into his dream girl who decides to make all the moves on him and he may legitimately fall in love with her and live happily ever after. It happens.
But he may not find her till he’s 40+, she may not really be the type of girl he’d like physically but hey what other choice does he have, she may not be the type of girl he’d like personality-wise but hey, what other choice does he have? And hopefully down the road she doesn’t cheat on him or divorce him and take his money and kids but even if she did what could he really do about it except let her. If he had looked for a quality girl and gone for what he wanted in life instead of just pinging off whatever happens to him, he might have gotten what he wished for when he was younger.
Personally I don’t feel comfortable leaving that up to chance. I spent my junior high, high school, college, and early adulthood waiting for that magical dream girl to appear like the movies and all the people telling “theres someone for everyone” and “just be yourself” told me she would…got tired of waiting and decided to be my best self instead of just being myself.
- TWTTWN
haha woah wait now are you saying I created the desire for bondage in her? Does that mean if you sucked a bunch of cocks right now you’d become gay and crave wang?
The desire was already there, she had fantasies about it, and her boyfriend SHOULD be exploring it with her if he wants her to truly be satisfied in bed. All I did was create a safe space for her to explore those desires without judgement. Realistically she should just tell him what she wants but she won’t because she’s scared, so instead she should ditch him and date a guy who’ll do it to her but she won’t because she’s invested in their relationship now. If that guy could read her signals he could make her happy as a clam but because he can’t she’s stuck in a relationship not having the sex she likes to have, like so many other people.
You aren’t saying that a person can be changed from dominant to submissive etc are you? There’s gotta be some Dopers here into BDSM who can back me up in telling you that’s not how it works.
I could reference other girls but I’m trying not to come across like I’m bragging. I just have a lot of experience and so far there’s been no reason to mention other types of girls. This is a really weird point you’re harping on.
Tomato, tomahto. I am making fun of your silly points and defending myself against your prejudiced accusations, yes. I’m pretty sure anyone being bullied would do the same.
Who are these guys I’m gettin bragging rights with?? Do you think guys are PM’ing me going “dude way to totally bang a virgin!! High-five bro!!!” like some kind of high school locker room? This isn’t an American Pie movie.
I have a lot of points to respond to as the only PUA in the thread about PUAs, and those points have a lot of nuances (like the “no doesn’t always mean no”) stuff so I over-explain to avoid confusion.
PUA techniques basically boil down to being confident and presenting yourself in the most attractive manner possible, while reading the cues a woman is giving off and acting on them. Why is that skeevy if you’re interested in having a relationship with a girl in a church?
I just said I personally don’t go to churches. A religious PUA who wants a long term commitment would be perfectly justified in doing so.
Oh, so you’re just not reading my posts at all then, I get it. If you had you’d have seen the numerous times I explained that you can use the skills for whatever you want. If you want a long term committed monogamous relationship you can get that. If you want a bunch of flings you can get that. I don’t want commitment, that’s why I don’t sleep with girls who do want it, despite having the skillset to.
- TWTTWN