Is the "pick up artist" movement an inherently good or bad thing?

[Polerius]

@miss_elizabeth

I’m going to need a cite about a time in recorded history when people (men and women) didn’t work to improve their appearance, yes. It is my understanding that anthropologists have even found sharpened clamshells they believe were used for shaving, so it seems like a feature of humanity the predates even recorded history.

As I said, it’s a lovely story, but it is one you made up and isn’t true for any society I can think of, or have read about, but of course if you have a cite to show the opposite, let’s see it.

In any society where people “work to improve their appearance”, they are actively trying to either
[LIST=a]
[li]Obtain the characteristics that the other gender finds attractive (e.g. become rich, get a better body through exercise, etc)[/li][li]If they can’t do (a), then fake having the characteristics that the other gender finds attractive (e.g. put on makeup, shave your body hair, wear a cup-enhancing bra, short men wearing height-enhancing shoes, etc)[/li][/LIST]
Do you doubt the above? Do you doubt that at least part of “work to improve their appearance” means faking features they don’t have?

[miss_elizabeth]

Also, frankly, I find your entire argument to be a distraction. I don’t see anyone in this thread saying it is a bad thing for men to learn better social skills; the opposite, in fact. The main thrusts I see against the PUA community are that it is a scam, and that it treats women as objects to be conquered rather than partners to be cared for (even in a one night stand you can care for and respect your partner, something I don’t see the PUA’s really stressing).

Learning how to better market yourself, for lack of a better term, isn’t a bad thing when women or men do it, and no one says it is. The question is, do PUA’s actually help with that, or is it a scam, and are their methods on the whole beneficial to society.

[Polerius]

@miss_elizabeth

No, we really can’t, because you tried to say that in times and places that weren’t western culture people strove to meet those ideals and failed, and that is demonstrably false.

Each place has its own ideals of beauty. In each place, only a fraction of the people have those particular characteristics. In each place the rest of the people try to either obtain those particular characteristics, or they fake having them. Most, in fact end up having to fake having them. Simple, really.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Polerius

In any society where people “work to improve their appearance”, they are actively trying to either
[LIST=a]
[li]Obtain the characteristics that the other gender finds attractive (e.g. become rich, get a better body through exercise, etc)[/li][li]If they can’t do (a), then fake having the characteristics that the other gender finds attractive (e.g. put on makeup, shave your body hair, wear a cup-enhancing bra, short men wearing height-enhancing shoes, etc)[/li][/LIST]
Do you doubt the above? Do you doubt that at least part of “work to improve their appearance” means faking features they don’t have?

I find your insistence that women are “fake” odd, honestly, but I’ll concede that “working to improve their image” means mimicking features they don’t naturally have, oftentimes. Even so, I’m not sure what the point it, or what it has to do with your defense of the PUA community though.

[Polerius]

@miss_elizabeth

Learning how to better market yourself, for lack of a better term, isn’t a bad thing when women or men do it

Agreed then.

The question is, do PUA’s actually help with that, or is it a scam, and are their methods on the whole beneficial to society.

Fair enough. I assumed that some people in this thread were arguing that, even if their system works, what the PUA’s are teaching should not be taught because they are telling men to fake having some characteristics when they don’t have those characteristics.

[you_with_the_face]

@Polerius

I don’t disagree that people want less phoniness. But, if women stop being phony about their looks and go with their natural looks, and if men stop being phony about their “swagger” and go with their natural character, I don’t think the majority of people would like the outcome (which I think is one where the top 10% of men and women get all the action/attention and if you’re not one of them you won’t be able to do anything about it).

I don’t think looks and character traits are equal to each other on the “phoniness” scale.

Most men are not under the delusion that women wearing lipstick naturally have lips that are that red. Most women are not lying about their height by wearing heels. No one thinks that someone wearing black nylons really has translucently-like black legs. And hopefully no guy who taken a basic biology course is under the impression that women’s skin is naturally hairless and fragranced like botanicals.

But when you mimic a set of behaviors to portray yourself as a self-assured macho dominant type–when really you are an introverted shy submissive–you *do *want people to believe that this is your true personality. This goes beyond normal mating rituals and into dishonesty.

So I don’t buy into what appears to be “what is good for the goose is good for the gander” argument.

[Polerius]

@miss_elizabeth

I find your insistence that women are “fake” odd, honestly, but I’ll concede that “working to improve their image” means mimicking features they don’t naturally have, oftentimes. Even so, I’m not sure what the point it, or what it has to do with your defense of the PUA community though.

I’m not defending them really (I did mention that I get a loserish and skeevy vibe from that whole thing).

But, I didn’t like the fact that some posters were implying that men who imitate having some features that the opposite gender finds attractive are considered undesirable because they are phony and fake, when it’s pretty clear that society is OK with women who imitate having some features that the opposite gender finds attractive.

[even_sven]

@Polerius

How is this different than what those PUA’s do?

They (claim to) have discovered similar “tricks” about women, and are just spreading the word.

Anyway, I never said anything bad about PUA’s. I just warn to recognize that the PUA lifestyle, for most people, has it’s time and place and it’s good to recognize that, keep your PUA techniques mentally separate from your "interacting with women in a non-NSA-sex situation, and have an exit plan.

As for “famous people have meaningless sex with people they don’t care about into old age…” Well, famous people also are notorious for developing addictions, committing suicide, going crazy or otherwise ending up in bad situations. When we have the choice to indulge as we wish, it’s not uncommon for us to choose options that don’t lead to a greater overall sense of wellbeing or happiness. We are awful long-term planners.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Polerius

Each place has its own ideals of beauty. In each place, only a fraction of the people have those particular characteristics. In each place the rest of the people try to either obtain those particular characteristics, or they fake having them. Most, in fact end up having to fake having them. Simple, really.

Well, maybe that’s what you meant, but it isn’t what you said above. And I still don’t really grok what this has to do with PUA’s.

I didn’t see your earlier reply when I wrote this. I don’t find a thing in the world wrong with helping men learn better social skills or however you want to put it. I’m not fully convinced this community does that, or does it in the best way, but the goal itself is fine with me.

[miss_elizabeth]

@you_with_the_face

I don’t think looks and character traits are equal to each other on the “phoniness” scale.

Most men are not under the delusion that women wearing lipstick naturally have lips that are that red. Most women are not lying about their height by wearing heels. No one thinks that someone wearing black nylons really has translucently-like black legs. And hopefully no guy who taken a basic biology course is under the impression that women’s skin is naturally hairless and fragranced like botanicals.

But when you mimic a set of behaviors to portray yourself as a self-assured macho dominant type–when really you are an introverted shy submissive–you *do *want people to believe that this is your true personality. This goes beyond normal mating rituals and into dishonesty.

So I don’t buy into what appears to be “what is good for the goose is good for the gander” argument.

I see where you are coming from, and I agree it is different, but I am not convinced, at all, that women don’t engage in similar behaviors. Several women have mentioned acting dumber, or more frail to attract men. It is well known that a woman looking to woo a man will laugh at his jokes, whether or not she finds them funny. All that is meant to conceal one’s “true personality”.

[msmith537]

@Malthus

Of what use is advice like “always keep her guessing”, “make her jealous” or “never tell her I love you first”, much less “fuck her good”? The kind of guy suffering from shyness, depression, introversion etc. doesn’t have any contact with a “her” to emotionally manipulate … they are not in a position to “fuck” anyone, “good” or not, which is kinda the problem.

Of far more practical significance is advice on how to flirt effectively - but of course, that lacks the added advantage of playing to comforting stereotypes.

That would be covered under what they refer to as “peacocking” and “openers”. IOW, “dress in an interesting way” and “walk up to a woman and say something interesting”.

@Polerius

Fair enough. I assumed that some people in this thread were arguing that, even if their system works, what the PUA’s are teaching should not be taught because they are telling men to fake having some characteristics when they don’t have those characteristics.

I think most of the objection comes from the notion that it violates the romanticized Hollywood “just be yourself and you’ll eventually find the right special one to fall in love with you forever” fantasy that many people (men and women) believe in. If that happens for you, great. But for some people, it doesn’t “just happen”. Those people need to be more proactive.

Of course, it can be taken to an extreme. But you know what? I think in those cases, the so-called “pick up artists” and the women who allow themselves to be picked up by them are choosing to join a particular subculture. If you are a girl hanging out in Jersey Shore bars and fraternity houses, you are basically there because you are looking to get picked up by guidos and frat guys.

[Polerius]

@you_with_the_face

I don’t think looks and character traits are equal to each other on the “phoniness” scale.

Most men are not under the delusion that women wearing lipstick naturally have lips that are that red. Most women are not lying about their height by wearing heels. No one thinks that someone wearing black nylons really has translucently-like black legs.

I conjecture that in a few centuries, if something akin to PUA becomes the norm, people will say
“Women are not under the illusion that men who appear uber-confident are so, or that when men give you a “neg” they don’t like you, it’s just part of the mating ritual that all women enjoy”
(Of course, we have to revisit this thread in a few centuries to see if I was right )

And hopefully no guy who taken a basic biology course is under the impression that women’s skin is naturally hairless

Well, young girls/women are naturally mostly hairless, and older women are not, and the older women try to become hairless to mimic youth.

But when you mimic a set of behaviors to portray yourself as a self-assured macho dominant type–when really you are an introverted shy submissive–you *do *want people to believe that this is your true personality. This goes beyond normal mating rituals and into dishonesty.

I agree that it is dishonesty if you fake who you are, but I find it funny that women have been doing it for so long (about their looks) that what they do is considered a “mating ritual” and not dishonesty.

BTW, in case it’s not clear, I like women wearing makeup. It adds a lot to the attractiveness when they do so. And I am not advocating an end to makeup. It’s just that, personal preferences aside, if we take away centuries of cultural conditioning, at the most fundamental, purely logical, level, it is dishonesty to pretend to have some characteristics you don’t have.

[you_with_the_face]

@miss_elizabeth

I see where you are coming from, and I agree it is different, but I am not convinced, at all, that women don’t engage in similar behaviors. Several women have mentioned acting dumber, or more frail to attract men. It is well known that a woman looking to woo a man will laugh at his jokes, whether or not she finds them funny. All that is meant to conceal one’s “true personality”.

I agree that playing dumb is just as deceptive as playing macho. I don’t do the former very well at all (I can’t even plaster a fake smile on my face without feeling like idiot), so I’d be last person justifying this type of rigamarole.

Just saying that typical female grooming and polishing isn’t the same thing as posturing like an alpha male when that is not your natural personality.

[Argent_Towers]

@miss_elizabeth

Really? You don’t know a single guy who prefers a woman with a nice hairdo? Attractive, well fitting, fashionable clothes instead of sweatpants? You don’t know a single guy who prefers his date wear makeup, unless they are going to a formal event? You don’t know a single guy who prefers a woman who shaves her legs and armpits? What about pubic hair? You don’t know any men who prefer women clean shaven, or attractively trimmed “down there”? You don’t know any guys who find heels sexier than sneakers? Are you fucking kidding us? :rolleyes:

There’s a difference between caring about your appearance and obsessing over it the way even sven described, talking about high heels and toiletries and all that crap.

Shaving, wearing decent looking clothes, etc, is not a big investment of time or effort. No, I don’t know any guys who really give a shit about high heels. High heels are worn either at formal events or at “clubs” that I do not and will never party at.

You are seriously overestimating how much guys care about what you wear. Most ‘dress-up’ girls seem to me to be dressing up for each other.

All the girls walk by, dressed up for each other - Van Morrison, “Wild Nights”

If you can’t take it from Van, who can you take it from?

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@even_sven

We need to make positive moves, too, but we have to go about it in devious ways- which is a lot of work to figure out. A guy can just say “Hey, let’s go up to my room” but a woman often has to pull some stuff like “Uh, I really have to go to the bathroom…” and wait for him to invite you up or whatever. It’s a lot easier to actually say your intentions than to try to sit around projecting them.

My first girlfriend I met while teaching my first class during my Master’s. Yeah, I was an undateable shy guy in high school and even in college, still am at 28 and probably always will be. She was a student of mine, but I made sure to avoid possible conflicts of interest. She started walking me back to my office after class, but it took me a long time to realise she was interested in me, especially given that she wasn’t really my type and anyway I was after another girl at the time. At some point she decided she had to do something, called me at home sounding almost aggressive, telling me that she didn’t know what I wanted, that sometimes I looked like I was interested while other times she felt I just didn’t care. I thought about it for a week, I said yes and we stayed together for a year.

What am I trying to say? Probably that yes, it’s easier to say your intentions outright than try to project them – here’s advice that maybe I should heed as well – and yes, women can do it, and it works. They don’t have to jump through all those hoops you’re talking about; as long as they look decently well and they’re interesting people they don’t have to spend hours on their appearance and “dumb themselves down”.

Or maybe I and all (both) the women I dated are crazy. Hey, you’ll get no argument from me! It’s true that the women I notice are often not the same ones other guys will point out as especially hot.

[Zsofia]

Trust me, dude. Strangers who are “tens” are tens generally because they put some work into it - check out those pictures of stars taking their trash out if you don’t believe me. It’s people you actually know as a human being who you think are stunning in their pajamas.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

For me, this stuff is about diminishing my own self-esteem. I’m sure I could get laid more often and by a more highly prized bunch of women (younger, prettier, sexier, though I’ve no real complaints now) if i were willing to work hard enough at mastering these techniques, but I think I’d feel worse about myself–that I’m not charming just the way I am, that women don’t find me inherently interesting, and that I have to do all sorts of stuff that I ordinarily don’t do (and don’t feel comfortable pretending that it’s just my natural self). I might get laid by a better class of woman (maybe) but I’d have to confront the fact that I couldn’t do that just being myself, which tends to make me feel worse, not better, about myself. And I’d find it hard to transition into a real relationship if I were in one that started by pretending to someone radicially different from myself.

Quite true. Surely there is a way to learn to interact with people in better and more effective ways, but I wouldn’t want to have to change the man that I am just in order to get more sex, with “a better class of woman” whatever that is. I probably wouldn’t like the women I’d get by acting like a pick-up artist, and anyway as MeanOldLady says it’d be transparently obvious that I’m not confortable in that role.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Argent_Towers

…
Shaving, wearing decent looking clothes, etc, is not a big investment of time or effort.
…

I think you underestimate how much time and effort these things take, frankly. I also think that you are taking your opinions and experiences and translating that to all men. Maybe you don’t go to clubs, but plenty of people do, for example, so dismissing that entire part of a very common dating ritual out of hand is a little strange to me.

[BigT]

I personally think it depends on the PUA you are referring to. There are actually many kinds. There are some that treat women with respect, teach you to become rather than just pretend to be an attractive person, and then just give you tips on top of that.

There are others that are specifically designed to manipulate–and they don’t hide it, either. I remember watching a bit about Speed Seduction, and the whole point is to hypnotize a woman into liking you just so you can have sex with her. I’ve seen others where the point is to play mind games to keep the woman interested, and even some where you are actually told that a woman doesn’t really mean “no” when she says “no”!

And this was a few years ago–I’ve been out of the culture for a while, since even the nice ones focus too much on sex for me. But one of my old haunts still seems to be up and running. Check out sosuave.com, and see the variations.

[Argent_Towers]

@miss_elizabeth

I think you underestimate how much time and effort these things take, frankly. I also think that you are taking your opinions and experiences and translating that to all men. Maybe you don’t go to clubs, but plenty of people do, for example, so dismissing that entire part of a very common dating ritual out of hand is a little strange to me.

I think that most men would not go through the “club” ritual, and you do admit that it is a ritual, if they didn’t have to. Men don’t give a shit about dancing. They don’t enjoy bobbing their heads to music so loud that you can’t hear anybody talk. They enjoy drinking, but they’d enjoy it a hell of a lot more if they were doing it out while out on the lake fishing than inside a crowded, noisy club. Guys go through the “scene” to get laid. If they didn’t feel like they had to do this, they wouldn’t do it.