Is the "pick up artist" movement an inherently good or bad thing?

Great Debates
141

But any guy who has paid attention to their biology teacher (or friends in the locker room…or 70’s-era porn) would know that the vast majority of grown women naturally have pubes and hairy legs. I know of no women who will falsely deny removing their body hair. Waxing is public knowledge. Nair commercials show during prime-time hours. Women’s razors are sold right next to men’s. If a man is delusional enough to believe the object of his affection is not a hair-sprouting machine when left unattended, it is not because he’s been lied to. It’s because he’s a liitle dense.

Why is it dishonest? Everyone knows what make-up is and that women wear it. Everyone knows that if most women’s hair naturally looked pretty and coiffed and professionally groomed, hair salons would go out of business. High-heels shoes are common knowledge.

I agree that some tricks are borderline dishonest (such as corsets, weaves, and padded bras), but the vast majority of enhancements that women use are no more deceptive than any other kind of grooming technique.

If a self-proclaimed expert advised women to lure men by wearing a butt-length weave, getting breast implants, and pitching their voice high to mimic Marilyn Monroe’s, I would view them with the same contempt that I view Roissy.

142

See, you’re doing it again. The guys on Jersey Shore seem to like it fine. My SO loves it. Maybe some guys only go to get laid, but it isn’t all, not by a long shot. Most of the men I know really like a similar scene; I mean, we mostly go to gay clubs (because the music is better and all the people I know aren’t single and like not having to be in the middle of the meat market since we dress schlubby) but the loud music and dancing is the reason we go! We also like fishing on the lake.

I really think you need to consider that your experiences aren’t universal.

143

I could not disagree more. Maybe men from your background/circle of friends would rather be drinking while on the lake fishing, but lots of men I know would much rather be in a crowded energy-filled club with lots of women wearing makeup and high heels and listening to loud music.

144

There’s the key issue: they’re there because there are women there and they want to get laid.

I truly believe that if they could spend the day fishing with their friends, then come back home and have there magically be a random group of attractive women, from whom they could select one to sleep with, they would rather be in that arrangement than have to do the “singles scene,” clubs, bars, spend money, etc.

145

You may truly believe that, but I’m telling you- you’re wrong.

146

That’s the thing- simple “caring” is an investment of time and money. Go price yourself a simple drugstore three-step skincare regime, mid-range shampoo, conditioner and say one hair product, and a basic make-up kit (concealer, powder, blush, eyeshadow, liner, mascara, lipstick and gloss…and trust me, it can get infinitely more complicated). That’s easily over a hundred bucks, using bare-bones drugstore stuff.

You’ve shaved your beard. That’s what? A few square inches? And yet there are still some times when men can’t be bothered to shave. Well, imagine shaving square feet at a time. And some of those parts may be extremely foldy and extremely delicate (and you get to do that part blind!). Oh, and razor burn sucks for a guy, but razor crotch will end your night.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep your nails up? If you wear color, it takes near daily attention. If you go with clear, you can get away with once or twice a week. Still, it’s a pain in the butt. Guys don’t notice that you are wearing some trendy shade, but they do notice that you look “well-kept” or “expensive” and having professionally-done (or passable) nails is a part of that.

You don’t give a shit about heels, but you notice nice legs, don’t you? Take notice one day- do those “nice legs” belong to girls wearing Converse? It’s not the shoes themselves that guys notice, but they way they accentuate your legs and butt and they way they make you walk. And heels don’t need to be a mile high to be uncomfortable. Basically all women’s shoes that are dressier than sneakers are some degree of uncomfortable, although eventually you can re-align the bones and overload the nerves enough that you don’t feel it.

Anyway, I’m actually a pretty low-maintenance girl. Even looking “presentable” is a lot of work.

147

If we made it so that the likelihood of getting laid was equal in the two scenarios (club vs fishing on the lake), I assure you that there are lots of guys who would pick the club over fishing on the lake. Some people do in fact like different things than you do, and some of those people enjoy dancing at clubs and find fishing on the lake boring.

148

This is easy to test. There are entire countries where non-prostitute women generally do not go to clubs. Indeed, I’d venture this is the case in most countries outside the industrialized world. Clubs still exist. You’ve never seen a sausage party like a nightclub in a Muslim village, let me tell you.

Actually, this is even easier. Why are there gay dance clubs and not gay fishing clubs?

149

I have a feeling AT isn’t going to count gay men as real men, but I hope to be proven wrong.

150

That’s nonsense. I’m not a big “club guy”, but there are plenty of people in NYC and Jersey who actually do like going to clubs and have zero interest in stuff like fishing.

The gay pickup scene is very different from the straight pickup scene. Hetero PUA tactics typically do not apply. I was talking to a gay buddy of mine at length and he was extremely surprised the lengths we hetero men have to go through to get laid.

151

Uh…because clubbing and dancing is largely connected to sexual posturing and activity, and fishing is not in any way whatsoever connected to sexuality?

152

This really reads oddly to me, as young women are NOT naturally mostly hairless. Only pre-pubescent girls are. Most girls start growing hair at the age of 13.

Eek. Wow, the discussion board is eye opening. Well, at least I know how to coerce a 16 year old into giving me a blow job now (secluded location, weed, booze and then it’s ‘whatever you want’…)

153

I’ll concede that the shaving is a bitch. As for the rest of this stuff, the truth is, I don’t really know how important men find it to be. I certainly don’t care about it, but maybe others do.

So I created a poll about it. Maybe this will shed some light on what men actually think. If I’m proven wrong, so be it.

154

Here is an experiment…

Look at the guys around you. Chances are they have very short hair, certainly not long enough for them to have to wrangle with curls or whatever. If they have any kind of length, they almost certainly have straight hair and keep it in a ponytail most of the time.

Now look at the girls. Every girl whose hair is “more done” than a butch cut or a straight ponytail, has put time and effort into her hair. Gah, you guys bitch when we get “mom haircuts,” but even that is time and money to maintain. “Normal” hair- be it a nice straight cut, a cute pageboy, or soft curls, is quite likely the result of daily washing with non-Sauve shampoo, some kind of heat treatment, and at least one (probably more) styling products. Every day. Even if a woman has a boring plain haircut, that doesn’t mean her hair is wash and wear. Reaching “neat, clean, styled” hair is work. That’s why you guys stick with butch cuts. If we spent the time you spent, we would also have butch cuts.

Now look at faces. Guys faces are in different states of disarray, but chances are there are visible wrinkles, dry or oily spots, and stubble. Now look at girls. You don’t see a lot of that, do you? We get those things, too. In China, 90% of the girls I taught had some kind of mustache. You don’t see that on Chinese American girls. Why? People work to get rid of it. We can’t let our stubble grow out a few days. We take daily effort and use products to keep our skin moist, smooth and young-looking. If we didn’t do that, we’d likely look nearly as rough and rumpled as the average guys face our age.

Every girl you see above, say, 25 who is wearing any makeup is probably wearing a lot of make-up. There comes a point where you can’t do the whole “Oh, I just use lipgloss and mascara” thing. Achieving the whole “neat, natural, not-showy” make up look is just as much work as going with red lipstick and heavy eyeliner. The neat looking librarian in subtle beiges? She spends time on her makeup. She probably spends at least 20 minutes with it, every day. Nearly every woman who is wearing make-up, but especially those who can make it look natural, spends time and money on her make up.

Now look at clothes. What are they guys wearing? Relatively loose pants and shirts, in a couple generic cuts, and flat shoes. He might possibly be wearing a belt, which is the only part that really gets close to the body or shows it off.

Now look at the girls. You probably see a dizzying array of clothes, and it’s effort to learn what looks good, buy it, and wear it. Lots of it probably shows the body, which is uncomfortable. There is a reason why pajamas are loose. There is a reason why men like boxers. Now think of nylons- that’s like briefs that cover half your body. Again, any shoes that are dressier than sneakers are somewhat uncomfortable (although there are a few brands of dazzling expensive and still frumpy “comfort” dress shoes.) Even those innocuous looking ballet flats are not all that comfortable- they have poor arch support and tend to slip off the heels.

Ever look at your toes? Men’s feet are gross. Our feet would be gross, too, if we didn’t do things to take care of them.

If we put forth the amount of effort that guys put in, we’d look like guys- short easy-to-care-for haircuts, nowhere-near-perfect skin and loose body-concealing clothing. People who do dress like that- such as some butch lesbians- are generally considered unattractive and derided. Everyone who doesn’t look like that…as in the vast majority of women…is putting in a fair amount of effort, whether it looks like that at first glance or not.

155

I deeply suspect you don’t notice most of it.

156

That was actually the point though; gay men don’t necessarily “have” to go to clubs to get laid, and yet- they do! And they do because some men enjoy going to clubs and dancing. Some straight men so, some gay men do; not every an at a club is miserable and wishes they were fishing. They go out dancing for the pure joy of it.

157

I’ll back up AT here. I think that all of the “getting ready” women do is typically not nearly as important (to men) as they seem to imagine it to be. If anything, it is just a longer standing version of the PUA, just based on women. Personally, I see it as a consequence of decades of psych warfare and conditioning, primarily pushed and funded by all of the industries that rely on selling all of these products- makeup, plastic surgery, wrinkle reducers, thighmasters, constantly changing fashions, etc. They use the exact same scheme as any PUA-advice: you are to blame for your failures, look how successful[beautiful] you could be, and I’ll be happy to share my secrets for only $29.95. There is really no difference in trying to teach men that you could make them an “alpha” and more than there telling women they can just use some products and be a “10”.

Can there be any benefit from these set-ups? I would suppose that PUA have helped a small number of shy or underconfident men have some success, but I would imagine that the ‘appearance game’ has a net negative effect on women overall. I don’t know if there is any ultimate goal for a PUA (random sex every night?, 100% ‘success’ rate?), but there is an obvious ultimate women: tall, thin, big chested, perfect features, clear skin, wrinkle free, etc. Since this is pretty much a purely invented and impossible goal to achieve, it does nothing but demolish women’s self esteem even further. Van Morrison said it right, most of what women do is in order to compete with other women, not to attract men. Even in this thread, women have called out other women who don’t play this game. Even the men who admit to playing the PUA game, haven’t called out other men and will readily admit there’s a time and place for it, and most seem to have stopped doing it by their mid-20’s or so.

158

There was a time long ago – the 18th Century, that is – and in Europe only, I suppose – when straight men of sufficient means and leisure put considerable effort into dressing, painting and coiffing with elaborate effeminacy, to get laid. See Macaroni. The Regency-Era style of the Dandy, as poufy as it seems nowadays, originally was invented as a more masculine reaction to the Macaroni.

Look, ladies, in terms of style, what kinda man do you really want – Casanova, or Beau Brummel, or Ernest?

159

Success makes a man attractive to women, but that does not mean that all women will have a one night stand with a successful man. Nevertheless, whatever a woman wants from a man, whether it is a one night stand, a more durable affair, or marriage, nearly all women will prefer a man with wealth, power, and prestige.

A “pick up artist,” without high status who is successful in picking up women will be a man who is physically attractive, who is able to feign high status, and who is able to tell which women are attracted to him, and which women are not.

160

It’s always changing. It depends on the fashions. Really, right now, women tend to want Ronnie Gardocki. And who could blame them. But whatever the fashions may be, I think the basic characteristics that make a man desirable to women remain the same.