As a person of Asian descent, I would like to assure kgriffey79 that Asians certainly are NOT generally more intelligent than any other person of any other race. I could hold up plenty of examples, including myself and many of the people I associated with in school back in the halcyon days of my childhood. Sure, many Asian immigrants, wanting to give the best life possible for their children, lives they did not have in their home country, push their children in academic matters harder than many American parents. But then, this phenomenon is not limited to Asians, is it?
As for blacks being more athletic, that line of bull has been addressed many times here. Suffice it to say that this stereotype is more blatantly harmful than the previous, since deep belief in it limits options.
At any rate, this forum has already addressed how any stereotype, “positive” or not, is insulting. I’ll see if I can’t dig one such thread up…
OK, speaking as an Asian man (family from India), I think some points are worth making with respect to the “emasculation” of Asian men.
I grew up in a smallish university town with a fairly substantial Indian population. The university was the main reason for that - it was the largest employer in town, and also had a high proportion of employees whose jobs (whether academic or professional) required a higher level of education. So, there was a substantial Indian population, as well as Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, etc. For now, I’m just going to focus on the Indian population.
I grew up with a number of Indian women in my age group, or near enough. The community was substantial, but was not so big that people didn’t mostly know each other. So I pretty much knew all of the Indian girls in my age group in my community.
To date, not one of them has married an Indian man. Zero, zilch, nada. Not a single one. Also, to date, the young Indian men that I went to school with are mostly unmarried, but the few who did marry tended to marry in their race. (Full disclosure - I am happily dating a white woman, so I’m the exception. I’m nevertheless pretty familiar with the rule.)
The reality that Indian men certainly face (and, to read the postings on other boards, Asian men generally) is that Indian women tend to date and marry outside their race at a far greater rate than Indian men. (And, again, Asian men generally. See the study cited here for background). Indeed, there is a sizeable portion of Indian women (and, again, Asian women generally) who have no desire to date and marry Indian men (and, again, Asian men generally). As an anecdotal example, there are exactly two ads in this week’s Chicago Reader Matches for Women Seeking Men placed by women who self-identify as Asian. Both invite responses from single white men.
Now, the reasons for this are obviously a complex pastiche. Some critics hold that Asian women are simply seeking status and assimilation by dating and marrying outside their race. If the critic is forgiving, they may try to lay the blame on patriarchal Asian societies that deny women autonomy, and marriage outside the race being a means of escaping that bondage. This belief is especially true with Indian women because of the ongoing practice of arranging marriages, which is still viewed from the outside as a restriction on the woman’s rights, not the man’s. Some blame the men (who tend to be white men) for having “yellow fever” or “Asian woman fetish.” Some blame white women for failing to meet the needs of white men. (More on this below.)
But the bigger question becomes - why don’t the numbers flow the other way? Why aren’t Asian men outmarrying at rates comparable to Asian women? Again, complex web of reasons. Some would say that Asian men are conditioned by their parents or their culture to focus on studies at the expense of athletic or social activities. (The former of which can help build sex appeal, and the latter of which can help build social skills useful for meeting and interacting with people). There’s some truth to that. But the bottom line is that Asian men do not draw the same level of attention from non-Asian women as Asian women attract from non-Asian men. (Again, the personals are a good anecdotal example, as they are replete with ads from women who self-identify as white and who invite responses from single white men.)
But ignoring the roles of media portrayals would be a mistake. Asian women tend to be much more visible in the mainstream media and entertainment industries than Asian men. (examples- Lucy Liu, Lisa Ling, Lauren Tom, Connie Chung, Amy Tan, Ming-Na Wen). Asian men, by comparison, are relatively invisible. When they are shown, they are either shown as nerdy, horny guys (Eddie Chin in the “American Pie” movies, Mickey Rooney’s Mr. Yunioshi in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”), sexless martial arts masters (Jackie Chan), as villains (e.g. Dr. Fu-Manchu, Oddjob), or as sidekicks or comic relief (the Indian doctor in the “Short Circuit” movies and the Indian programmer in “Office Space” come to mind). Some are slowly starting to cross over (e.g. Chow Yun-Fat), but it’s still a rare phenomenon. More importantly, Asian men are not typically shown in sexual roles, except to the extent that they are the geeky guys who want sex but never get it. Jackie Chan may kick a lot of ass, but in his American movies at least, he doesn’t get much of it.
Moreover, Asian female-white male relationships are portrayed in the media as acceptable and normal. Connie Chung and Amy Tan both have Caucasian husbands, Lucy Liu rose to prominence in a role where she dated a white lawyer (on Ally McBeal), and she has since been in a movie (and its forthcoming sequel) in which she is dating a white man (Matt Le Blanc, “Charlie’s Angels”). Lauren Tom had a prominent role on “Friends” in which she was dating Ross, a white man. Kristin Kreuk (who is half-Chinese in real life) dated an all-American white football jock on her show, and is now pining for all-American hero Clark Kent.
Now, I’m not suggesting that Asian female- white male relationships are bad or are something that should be condemned or should be the subject of “very special episodes” every time they occur. But . . . the instances in the media in which an Asian man is shown dating, marrying, or even screwing a white woman are virtually nil. I’m not going to say it never happens, but it’s certainly less high-profile than the examples I’ve cited.
There are also more pernicious, lingering stereotypes of both Asian women and Asian men that play into this. Asian women, for example, are still viewed by many as submissive, sexually adept, and less choosy than their Caucasian counterparts. (There is an observable phenomenon of geeky white guys with gorgeous Asian girlfriends, so I’m sure there are geeky white guys who believe they have a better chance with Asian women than women of their own race.) Asian men are viewed as unromantic, overly studious, nerdy, perpetually horny, and as having small penises. (Yes, you do hear that last one.)
Even though a lot of us think we’re better than that, our view of the world is shaped by the media, and often times our education as to “what is sexy” comes from the media. For a number of Asian men, therefore, there is a double-screwage that goes on. First, Asian women, with whom we share a common cultural heritage, are more predisposed to outmarry. They exist in a culture where this is considered normal and where the mainstream media supports this as normal. So they are cut off from a good chunk of women that would be potential partners. But then they also do not get the same leve of interest from non-Asian women as their female counterparts get from non-Asian men. And they (Asian men) exist in a culture where the mainstream media . . . barely shows them at all, certainly not in a sexual light.
RexDart cites stereotypes of Asian men as hardworking, industrious, dedicated, etc. Assuming those stereotypes do exist, they’re still not all that helpful. First off, there is no comparable stereotype of white men as not being any of those things. (this is a contrast with African-American and Latino men, where there are such stereotypes). Second, “hardworking”, “industrious” etc. are hardly attributes that set the bed afire. Those are qualities that are admired, but are still not generally viewed as “sexy” qualities. Desirable yes, but sexy, not so much.
Now, I’d be the last person to suggest that interracial dating is bad or should be condemned. (Three major relationships - only one with an Asian). But, at the very least, I think the article cited in the OP challenges those Asian women who refuse to date Asian men (and they do exist and are fairly numerous) to take a look at themselves and ask themselves why they make those choices. Are they harboring stereotypes that are unfair and perpetuate the continued invisibility and marginalization of Asian men from the romantic and sexual spheres? Should they perhaps broaden their horizons?
It’s always a touchy issue when the issue of Asian female- white male relationships come up, and often times Asian men come off sounding like racists when they voice frustration at the prevalence of these relationships. But there are legitimate gripes not so much with the relationships, but with the stereotypes and media portrayals that play into them, and the kinds of visibility that Asian men do not enjoy.
The linked article is one of those shrill, annoying calls to revolution that uses tired rhetoric to agitate people. If I were the type to get offended by things I read on the internet, I definitely would be offended by it.
jeevmon’s post makes a lot of the same points as the article, but acknowledges the complexity of the phenomena in question.
Isn’t it funny how the words you choose to make a point can be either harsh and offensive or thoughtful and insightful? It depends on one’s motivation, I guess. The article is basically agit-prop, while jeevmon’s post is analytical and intelligent. It seems like he cares about understanding the issue, while Julia Oh thinks she already understands everything, couldn’t possibly understand it any better, and wants to browbeat people into thinking and behaving like herself.
maybe i’m being really “out there” with this, but here goes.
from some friends of mine.
Case 1.
asian guy, parents keep sending him photos of indian girls so that they can arrange his marriage.
his response is always that he wants to be with a girl who is not afraid to stand up for herself, will be his equal, and won’t expect him to be “the man”. so he dates white girls, not exclusively, but mostly.
Case 2
asian girl, recently broke up with her white boyfriend.
reason being " i thought he’s treat me as an equal, but he expected me to be totally submissive, i’m not".
Case 3
asian girl. dates guys, no racial preferences.
she says that she’ll go out with the “modern” asian guys, but wouldn’t touch the “traditional” ones, likewise she’s staying far away from the sexist white guys.
surely race is unimportant if the couple have a loving relationship based on respect and equality?
jeevmon, excellent job at telling things from an Indian male perspective. I think many people aren’t attuned enough to see the kinds of things you talked about (especially the different ways Asian men and women are portrayed and stereotyped), and are therefore likely to scoff at the notion that anything other than innocent romance plays a role in some of these IRs.
I see this too in my own racial group, except the imbalance goes the other way. You make very good points.
No, you’re not. If a relationship is based on love, trust, respect, equality, etc., then it is solid and should not be condemned simply because the people involved happen to be of different races.
I am going to take a stab that with a handle like “irishgirl”, you did not have the joy of growing up male and Asian in late 20th century America. So you probably have not had the experience of having women of your own cultural background reject you simply because you are of your own cultural background. It does happen. It happens quite a bit. I would say most Asian men at one point in their lives have encountered Asian women (yes, plural) who only to date white men or who refuse to date Asian men. And the reasons given often reflect embedded stereotypes about Asian men (they’re too nerdy, they’re sexist, they’re not romantic, they’re not endowed, they’re mama’s boys, etc., etc.)
To take your case studies:
Case 1 seems to be a case of stereotyping about both Indian women and white women, namely, that Indian women are submissive and don’t stand up for themselves. (and I have to say - where was he raised? Seriously. Pretty much every Indian household I’ve been in, including my own, is strongly matriarchal. But maybe that’s a phenomenon associated with education and income.) And that white women do. His list of criteria is not faulty, but maybe he’s building in some stereotypes.
Case 2 seems to be the case of the white guy having Asian woman fetish and wanting a submissive girl. He probably is a serial Asian-dater. Can’t draw too many conclusions about your friend, though, because it’s not clear if she only dates white guys or not.
Case 3 seems to be the most healthy because she’s looking for a certain set of values and recognizes that there are Asian guys out there (the “modern” ones) who share those values.
Well, **jeevmon, ** here’s one (more or less; don’t Jews count as a minority group anymore?) white girl checking in who would have absolutely no problem dating an Asian guy, at least in principle, stereotypes be damned. In fact, I guess that with one half-Japanese guy in my somewhat non-extensive dating history, Asian guys are overrepresented in terms of their share of the Chicago-area population. Hell, I also went out with a nice Chinese guy last Saturday, and will probably go out with him again once he’s back in town. And FWIW, if Chow-Yun Fat asked me out, I’d sure as hell give it a try! (Then again, two of my major turnons are brains and prominent cheekbones, which may tend to skew my dating sample somewhat according to your analysis, at least about the brains part.)
I would, however, when dating ANYONE from a background dissimilar to mine, keep my eyes wide open for any indication of whether he would be less likely to take the relationship seriously because of potential cultural conflicts, particularly if his family was very against the idea of him being seriously involved with someone of a different background.
And on that subject, may I just mention how sick I am of certain elements in my family (Mom and Grandmom, are you out there?) telling me how I should make a bigger effort to date Jewish guys, because they are good providers and considerate and egalitarian? Not that I would automatically reject a Jewish guy, but the ones I’ve dated have been all over the map in terms of consideration and common values. Whatever happened to judging people as individuals?
As to the OP: it’s reminiscent of those African-American women who think that any African-American man who dates a white woman is a traitor to his race. (I’m a little sensitive on that one, because I think the last time my sister dated a white guy was in high school.) In short, I can understand their concerns, but in the end I think it’s just as racist, albeit in a somewhat more subtle and convoluted way.
Eva Luna, I’m not saying that there aren’t white women who would date Asian men. Heck, you of all people should know that I can’t plausibly make that kind of statement.
And the idea that being in an interracial relationship destroys any right to advocate on behalf of your race is a pernicious one.
But I don’t think it’s at all racist to suggest that those who refuse to date within their race should examine why they do that and whether that decision is based on stereotypes from which we should be moving away. As the OP suggested, this appeared to be where the Oh article was trying to go, but it got kind of lost in a lot of rhetoric about pride and struggle.
**jeevmon, ** believe me, I’m in no position to argue against your thesis in any kind of comprehensive way; I was just trying to reassure y’all that it isn’t hopeless! (Well, that, and if you’ve been holding out on fixing me up with some nice Asian friend of yours because you somehow think I’m holding out for a Nice Jewish Boy, you don’t have to anymore.)
And well, there are certainly those who think my sister is discriminating against Jewish, or even white, guys because she’s dated exclusively African-American guys for the last 10+ years. (OK, I wish the specific individuals she’s picked were less jerkish, but that has nothin to do with their race.) And there are those who think I can’t speak for Jewish pride because I most recently dated a couple of Catholic guys, or who think I have no pride in my heritage because I had a serious relationship with a Muslim. Needless to say, there are all sorts of complex issues mixed up in romantic attraction, but I think they should be judged on the individual level, not the macro-level.
I agree. I had a roommate who was Korean, and he used to say that he was absolutely not attracted to Asian women in the least. Not only that, but the only women he was attracted to were blonde, blue-eyed Barbie types. Was this just his aesthetic preference, or was his psyche marbled with misogyny and self-loathing? It’s not my place to make that judgement, but he could probably benefit from a little critical thinking about his preferences. Of course, he could probably have benefited from a little critical thinking about a lot of other aspects of his personality as well. So could we all, I suppose, but some of us more than others.
i enjoyed your response jeevmon, i think cuauhtemoc summed up what you said rather nicely vs. the linked article. I grew up in an interacial home, faced prejudice and severed family ties because of it, and now have become more sensitive when people bring up interracial dating and start carting out the old “traitor to their race” argument.
Come to think of it, the same was true of the half-Asian guy I dated briefly. I may have even been the lone brunette he ever dated (I’ve known him since high school; we dated briefly one summer while I was in college). He ended up marrying a very nice, but rather ditzy blonde woman (he is smart as hell, and I could never understand how he could marry someone who wasn’t even close to being his intellectual equal). I met her a couple of times, and while there was, shall we say, an obvious physical attraction, all of our old group of friends predicted it wouldn’t last. (It didn’t; last I heard, they were in divorce proceedings after less than a year of marriage).
Well, I hope he sorts out all his issues eventually; he is a really nice guy.
jeevmon’s post was fascinating, because I can’t honestly remember ever seeing a mixed marriage/couple where the male or female was Indian.
KG’s points are perhaps true - to an extent that it would only be even remotely relevant to the small portion of the populations in Asia that interacted/interacts with the military and/or tourists. Especially military guys. No, I don’t think military guys are whoremongers. I do think, however, that a) when it is mostly guys visiting, b) the country in question is quite a bit poorer than the country the guys are from, and c) said guys have been fighting and without female companionship for days/weeks/months on end, yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me if a booming prostitution business was the end result.
Sadly, and unfortunately, in many countries prostitution is seen (both by the woman, or her family) as a way out of poverty. It is fairly easy to see how horny, hormone-challenged kids in the military years ago took home the stereotype of sex-crazed Asian nymphs after being surrounded by pretty young things willing to do the horizontal bop. Compared to their girls back home - probably sexually uptight from the Christian upbringing that said ‘sex was bad/evil/dirty’, they guys probably felt like they were in heaven.
The problem, of course, is equating ‘willing’ with ‘eager’ - by and large, the girls weren’t horny, they were poor and hungry. I know, however, that males want to believe that the prostitutes they meet or the women in porn the watch, are horny, eager participants. I guess it makes it easier on the conscience.
I don’t think I am being racist here, I am just trying to describe how I think the modern stereotype evolved.
Anyway - I did have another point here somewhere ah, yes. Asian women. Hong Kong women, Korean women, Japanese women - all COMPLETELY different. Lumping them together under one big “Asian” umbrella is just stupid.
Now, these are only my personal experiences, and in no way am I certain that they are 100% accurate representations of the country(ies) as a whole. That said, conversations with friends, etc. confirms at least for me that white guys do indeed seem to have similiar experiences. And while I have lived with women from Japan and the US, I have never lived with women from Hong Kong or elsewhere, so unfortunately I can really talk about and make comparisons based on my experiences dating.
First - yes, it has been my experience that Japanese women are much more willing to have sex. Not necessarily because they are ‘hornier’. Or sluttier. But because they have fewer hang-ups about it. Interestingly enough, Western guys are not the only ones to believe that Japanese women are horny babes willing to put out anytime, any place - my Chinese friends in Hong Kong were almost as annoying in pleading with me to introduce them to Japanese women. In fact, many of my Chinese co-workers knew Japanese porn stars by name. (I didn’t, and still don’t - not because I am so pure of heart, no doubt, but because I am simply bad with names
Unfortunately, Westerners (especially Americans) are so uptight about sex that I think they equate “no hang upgs” with “being a slut”. And nothing could be further from the truth. I met one wonderful woman many years ago, we had sex about four hours after we met. We dated for almost four years after that. Was she ‘easy’? Or a ‘slut’? Hardly. One of my roommates in uni spent six months chasing a (white) girl, eventually slept with her, and dumped her the next week. But maybe that’s another post.
My impression was that Hong Kong women were far ‘harder’ to get into bed - and that may be one reason why Japanese women were so popular with Hong Kong guys :rolleyes:
Now that I think about it - maybe one reason Japanese women are ‘easier’ to score: by and large, Japanese women can drink. And they like going out. Most Hong Kong women (and men, for that matter) couldn’t drink.
But after 15 years in Japan, I would have to say that in general, a white or black guy in Japan will find it easier to get laid than in the US. Doesn’t mean Japanese women are sluts. Doesn’t mean they are hornier. Just means they have fewer hang-ups. KG’s posts were wrong and offensive because he saw only half the equation, and automatically gave it completely different, offensive overtones.
And it certainly doesn’t mean that Japanese women will have sex with anybody, anytime, anywhere. In other words - guys asking to be introduced to a Japanese girl because he obviously wants a quick lay - that ticks me off. You still have to get her to like you, treat her with respect, etc. - quite frankly, Japanese women can be very feminine, but can still chew you up and turn you into mincemeat in a hurry - anyone wanting the ‘typical, shy, passive, Japanese girl’ is in for a very rude awakening when he gets her home. She still has to LIKE you, and last time I checked, what girls like in guys is pretty universal.
How can I explain it? Let me put it this way - in the states, I think girls meet lots of guys that they would like to have sex with, but for a variety of reasons - religion, health, parents told them sex was dirty, whatever - they are hesitant. In Japan, they generally don’t have the former or latter (certainly the health factor is very much a concern). So where the US woman may reject a physical relationship, the Japanese woman may be more comfortable with it. Simple as that.
I hope I have made my point without pissing any people off.
I should also note that before I came back to NY, I thought I had a ‘thing’ for Asian women. Interestingly, after coming back to NY, I find that no, I have a thing for women, period Although since finding the LOML, I am not interested in even looking at any other menus
I realize that my last post may give out the wrong idea - jeevmon’s post was fascinating, period - not just because I hadn’t seen an Indian mixed couple.
Intelligent, lucid, thoughtful and thought-provoking - one of the best-written posts I have seen in a long while.
