OP here.
In all the years I’ve been on the Dope, I’ve never had a thread get so many responses. And I just was reading CNN, saw this article and thought I might get an interesting response or two.
And now we’re on page 7! Amazing.
That’s all I have to say on this topic.
But they can’t be sexist without being sexist. I didn’t ask you if the Newsweek staff "thinks’ it’s sexist, I asked you if it IS sexist.
And no, holding a door isn’t sexist, it’s just a cultural trait. It may be archaic, and it may be rooted in some kind of mildly sexist assumptions, but most guys who do it now (and I don’t think very many do it only for women anymore) aren’t doing it because they’re consciously think “Woman weak. Man must help,” but because it was trained into them at some point, and it’s become unthinking and automatic. They see it as a point of ritual ettiquette, not literal “help.”
Me, personally, I hold doors for everybody. Gender doesn’t into it.
I don’t think you really have answered it. At best you’ve sort of implied that everybody at Newsweek (including all the women, I presume) is subconciously sexist, which is still, in my opinion, just as ridiculous as saying they’re consciously sexist.
The “Palin makes the GOP look bad line” didn’t come from me, so I don’t know why you’re asking me to defend it, but the photo of Palin (which, as I’ve said, is emblamatic of how she presents herself as a whole, not just her use of sexuality) is relevant to the article because it encapsulates her appeal to right wing populism, and that’s what makes her a problem for the GOP.
It’s a good question, and I’m not sure how to answer it. All I can say is, as a guy, you eventually get a sense of when a woman’s coming on to you. Practically every clip or pic of Palin I saw last fall, made it feel like she was coming on to the audience. I think the National Review’s Rich Lowry said it best after the debate between her and Biden:
I agree with Lowry: she really does have it, she knows it, and she’s quite willing to trade on it to build up her political appeal.
I work in an office that, despite being a statistical agency, has a considerable number of young, attractive women working here. (The visual appeal of statisticians has increased enormously over the past few decades, I’m glad to say. :)) But in all the years I’ve been working here, I’ve never seen a woman come across, in my workplace, the way Palin comes across before an audience. So I think you’re safe.
In other words, you, as a guy, get to decide if her behavior is appropriate?
No, but he can offer insight into what draws male attention, surely?
I get to decide if I feel like I’m being flirted with. “Appropriate” is neither here nor there.
For the record, women need to learn if you are going to dress sexy and pose for cameras, you cannot claim to be a victim when someone looks at the photos. If you don’t want guys staring at your body, don’t bring attention to your body. Pretty simple.
Also, if you don’t want to be a victim of sexism, then do not allow yourself to be picked for vice president because you are female, dumb and pretty and a certain segment of the electorate enjoys that. Palin had to know she was picked because she is pretty and a woman.
She even tried to use her dumb, pretty persona during the Biden debates to her advantage (winking, bullshit like that). Now she wants to claim sexism. Ugh. I hate being a guy and having to put up with things this stupid and entitled.
She’s coming on to you just like any other politician comes on to you. Why don’t I feel like she’s trying to slip her hand down my pants when she’s on the tube? Probably because I’m not inclined to. I’m not seeing her through that particular lens. Straight men are.
I keep hearing people say that Palin flirts on camera. Did any of you get that particular impression from Bush? I swear, if you were take the words that come out of her mouth and put them in his, what is “flirty” would almost certainly be called “downhome, good ole boy tossin’ back a beer with his buddies”.
But why exactly? Because of how you felt looking at her, or because of what she actually did?
I’m wondering how much of your impression comes from the fact that she sounds like an endearing idiot when she talks. Men probably get sucked into that, but I doubt she’s doing it on purpose.
I’m straight, but I’ve never gotten so much as a televisual titty-flash from Ms. Palin.
They can’t be sexist without being sexist, but they can be sexist without thinking they’re being sexist. Old lady sees a Black baby in a stroller and exclaims, “Oh, look at the cute little pickaninny!” She doesn’t think she’s being racist, but she is.
“It’s just a cultural trait” isn’t an excuse. Sexism is sexism, whether or not you’re consciously thinking about the superiority or inferiority of the sex of the person involved.
I’m sure there are plenty of people who engage in FGM who don’t literally think that every woman is going to go on a rampant sex rampage and cheat on her husband if she doesn’t have her clitoris sliced off. But hey, it’s a cultural thing, so it’s okay! :rolleyes:
If you think **everyone **at *Newsweek *decides what photo goes on the cover…
The problem **isn’t **her populism–it’s her visible place at the political extreme and refusal to compromise. That’s what the article says. And the photo says **nothing **about her political views or her polarization of the Republican party.
Yeah, and people wonder why I keep comparing this to justifications of sexual assault. Do you make a habit of hollering at, following, or otherwise harassing women who dress in a “sexy” way and then leave their homes without a male chaperone? Because, hey, if they didn’t want some asshole following them down the street and offering to fuck them, they should wear, I dunno, a sweatsuit or something.
Palin is not complaining because people are looking at the photo. She’s complaining because the photo was used in conjunction with an article about her political stance.
I notice that you continue to refuse to explain or even deny your support of the puppy-raping lifestyle, Dio.
The hell she’s not. She’s not too swift in some ways, but I think she’s clearly aware of her body language, and her effect on men.
Part of why it feels to men like she’s always flirting is that her body language is seldom ever natural. It always feels like she’s posturing. She comes off as transparently manipulative. I think probably a better characterization than saying she makes me feel flirted with is feeling worked. Every guy who’s ever been worked by an attractive woman for something she wants can recognize it again when they see it.
Bolded for emphasis. How *you *feel is irrelevant to whether you are actually being flirted with.
First you compared the use of the photo to rape, and now you’re comparing holding a door to female genital mutilation? You might want to dial down the hyperbole just a tad. You might start sounding a little hysterical.
Do you thing that everyone involved in choosing the photo is consciously or subconsciously sexist? Yes or no?
That’s only a problem for the GOP because the extreme in the GOP is the populist position, and because Palin’s potential to bring out the base in the Primaries could end up knee-capping the GOP’s ability to field a legitimate candidate.
Palin is complaining because it brings her attention, but the article is NOT about her political stances, it’s about her populism.
Actually, this leads to a question I have: if people are basing their cries of “sexism” on the idea that Newsweek would never run a similar photo of a male politician on the cover – well, does such a photo even exist?
I honestly can’t think of a case where another politician – male or female – deliberately posed for a professional, styled photoshoot in sexy-pose, during the period of time they were active in politics.
I suppose you could make the argument that no one ran Schwartzenegger’s Mr. Universe photos when he was running for office (and I don’t actually know that no one did, to be honest), but I think most people would take the position that beefcake photos from 30 years ago, well before the man entered politics, don’t have a lot of relevance as to what the guy is doing with himself today. If someone ran them, I doubt anyone took much notice.
I don’t know that you can point to sexism as the cause, here, when it may be that Newsweek simply doesn’t have the option of running sexy-pose photos of male politicians because such photos don’t exist. That doesn’t really say one way or the other whether they would, if they could.
This, of course, sort of reflects on how Palin chooses to manage her image, versus how every other politician (male or female) chooses to. I mean, come on – that flirty hip-tilt pose in that particular photo was deliberate on her part.
And in my honest opinion – if Obama did a professional, styled, posed photoshoot with him in nothing but boxers lying on a bearskin rug, damn straight Newsweek would run it. So would everyone else. And they’d be (rightly) pointing out that the existence of such a photo points to a severe lapse in judgment on his part.
(I’ll admit I completely don’t get the buzz around how “good-looking” she is, because I don’t find her good-looking at all. She has a very generic look to her and wouldn’t stand out in a crowd of soccer moms at all, if she weren’t so very very loudly vocal at all times. That hip-tilt pose doesn’t make me think “sexy”, it makes me think she’s trying way too hard.)
Okay, seriously now - stop. You’re starting to come off as really, really creepy.
I know when I’m being worked.
Palin’s winks are different than winks we’ve seem from other politicians. It’s not unusual to see a politician wink to a member of the crowd when standing/waiving on stage after a speech. Or even when joshing around with members of the press.
Winking directly into the camera when addressing the american public in a debate? I’ve never seen that until Palin.
And I love how Palin’s defenders (even one in this thread) keep insisting that the men who don’t like her don’t like her because she is attractive - as if her vapidity couldn’t possibly be a factor.
How does this make her different than all the trillions of posturing male politicians that have come before her and will follow? That’s the crux here. Not that she doesn’t pander. But why exactly should her pandering be called something else.
I guess I’m being naive. I just construe the winking and such from Palin as being more of a folksy, bygollygee I’m one of you type of populism. I’m not saying she’s not aware of her status as a sex symbol (it actually pains me to write that, as I don’t think of her as a sex symbol in any way), but I don’t necessarily think I could confidently state that’s what she’s playing up with the winking.
That’s a good point, and I don’t necessarily disagree with it. But it’s either flirting or blatent folksy pandering - to a degree we havn’t seen from a national politician. Either way, it sets her up for ridicule and makes the cover photo a perfect match for what (I think) Newsweek was trying to convey (Flirty, folksy, and USA! USA!).