While it’s not a perfect solution that’s what I did for my profile here.
Profiles and v-cards I think it’s fine to put in he/him she/her or whatever. Put your favorite color even. I haven’t seen pronouns in emails, like in the signature.
ETA: I want to add that I’ve reviewed hundreds of employee applications in the past couple months, and exactly zero of them included pronouns. If you are seeing a shift it may be regional?
~Max
How very resilient of them.
Was that what you meant by society “losing its resilience,” Martini_Enfield? That if we don’t keep getting opportunities to practice not calling out bigoted responses on a regular basis, we’ll lose the ability?
He is saying the norms are on his side (I think this is the core disagreement) and he doesn’t appreciate being in a situation where he doesn’t know the rules.
If the norms aren’t on his side (if it is normal to ask/look for pronouns instead of assuming) he doesn’t deserve notice, because he is expected to know the norms of society.
If the norms are on his side - meaning to assume a person is gender-conforming - it is reasonable to ask for notice from each person or situation where he is supposed to ask before assuming.
This has nothing to do with the good of society or individuals in it, it’s entirely about knowing what is the rule and what is the exception, as a matter of mental heuristics.
~Max
You do not speak for those people, my man. You and them are not a “we.”
I’m going to have to ask for clarification (so I can know what exactly I myself need to clarify).
Did you interpret my “we” as inserting myself into the group in your anecdote? That was not my intention. My “we” was about inserting myself into the group known as “society” (about whose resilience Martini_Enfield expressed so much concern).
Please put any ambiguity in my post down to clumsy writing on my part, and accept my apologies.
Seems to me the abusive name-calling and hostility directed at Martini here (Yes, I understand we’re in the Pit) is over the top. Not because I agree with him entirely on this issue (we’ve disagreed cordially off-line) but because he’s been a good citizen on the SDMB for quite a long time. When someone is often (or even only sometimes) a reliable ally on many issues, I think the decent (and progressive) stance to take towards him is to try to correct him patiently if firmly. If he were an across-the-board Nazi and general asshole, okay–I can see letting some spittle fly. But he’s not. He’s not even close. So if you’d like my advice, or even if you’d prefer me to jam my advice up my royal Irish arse, I’d recommend that you ease up on the level of animosity, while maintaining your firm positions. I simply think that would go better all around, for him as well as for you. Some of you (not naming any names now) are coming across as self-righteous bullies.
Woah, there, not so fast. Yes, he’s not a literal Nazi (I assume you mean modern RW Fascist there, not a WWII-era Nazi). But he’s a fervent pro-imperialist and neocolonialist, which are just as bad in my book. Yes, I said “just as bad”.
It seems to me that the level of “name-calling and abuse” (if you can even call it that) directed at Martini is entirely proportional to the level of name-calling and abuse he directed at trans people. The fact that there is so much hand wringing and gnashing of teeth over the alleged “abuse” directed at him is probably why so many trans posters have left the board.
Did you miss this:
The “weird” human beings he is disrespecting are posters here, their friends, children, spouses.
I think people are going easy on him.
It’s a Board dedicated to finding a consensual reality. When a member decides he is going to ignore a growing social consensus on nomenclature literally because he, by his own words, wasn’t personally consulted as to whether the specified group mattered to him… well, fighting ignorance is what we do.
But, yes, to your point, Martini’s position is not an uncommon position and should be recognized as such, as it is supported by many powerful people. Donald Trump. Newt Gingrich. Ben Shapiro. Ted Cruz. Mitch McConnell. Candace Owens. Devin Nunes. Jim Jordan. Matt Gaetz. Charlie Kirk. Josh Hawley. Brett Kavanaugh. All of these bright lights of Reason being illustrious names in the fight against “wokeness”, that horrible state where one is held accountable for past actions.
All powerful voices of the New Right, all in agreement with Martini. And if those people above are whom he wishes to publicly associate his values with, well, that’s good to know as well.
If I were a trans person (I do not have that honor) I think I’d look at “weird” as merely descriptive. Maybe I’d think “I suppose many people seem ‘weird’ to some folks. Maybe Martini would seem ‘weird’ to me” and not "String him up!!!’ It just seems over the top to me.
The other sentence seems purely descriptive. Are you going to argue that more than 1% of the population is trans? If not, then at least one “tiny” seems accurate, objectively speaking. Of course, utterly disregarding the rights of the tiniest number of people is wrong, but it seems to me you’re going far out of your way to find things to take grievous offense at.
That’s a very easy thing to say when you aren’t the one who society considers “weird”, when you aren’t reminded of how “weird” society considers you on a daily basis, and when you aren’t told that your rights don’t deserve to be protected by society because of how “weird” you are (I know YOU didn’t say that, but others certainly have, and Martini implied it).
“String him up!!!” would be an over the top description of the criticism he received over complaining that society had changed without personally consulting him. He claims that he has no reason to acknowledge their rights or existence because they are “weird” and “other”. There just aren’t enough of them to matter to him.
But that’s precisely what he is doing, and exactly his defense as to why.
It seems to me that you are are assuming “grievous offense” at the slightest hint of criticism.
Yes, for those who who refuse to read my admittedly unclear English, that’s what I’m saying. I agree that he’s wrong here, and I’m asking people to counsel him on where he’s gone wrong and what he might do to set himself right. I don’t think calling him names and otherizing him is the way to go. It does, however, seem to make you feel better about yourselves to do so, so there’s that.
Is it? It’s often hard to realize that the understanding one has, has evaded others for what might seem like an unreasonably long time. In such cases, again, it’s probably better to think back to oneself in a less enlightened time, and to try to remember what changed one’s mind. In a very few cases, personally, it was being informed that I was an asshole that turned the trick.
This seems weak to me, Sorry. Try substituting a less incendiary term for “grievous offense” and my point still holds without the weak snark.
Y’all stop being so mean to Ms @Martini_Enfield! I’m quite certain that she’s a very nice woman off-board!
It was absolutely having it pointed out to me that I was being homophobic that got me to pull my head out of my ass. Same with Trans issues. Actually, on these very boards, for the latter.
See, here’s the thing, when I tried to have a very calm conversation, I got this:
He does not appear interested in the calm, civil conversation. I suspect it’s because he realizes he’s being kind of dickish, and being defensive and martyricious is a lot easier than asking oneself the question, “Hey, am I the asshole in this scenario?”
I’m finding this part of the thread a little funny, and instructive, since normally I’m the pretty intolerant one advocating for the shaming and abuse of those I find racist, sexist, xenophobic, and I DO feel pretty good about myself when I’m aiming my poison pen in their directions. It’s jolly fun!! In the present case, I happen to know Martini pretty well, and he’s been helpful and cordial and generous to me personally, so I’m taking up the tack of others in dealing with the likes of him. Very instructive, as I say.
So when someone is maybe beginning to question his position, and his defensive posture, you figure “AH HA!! NOW is the moment to jump on him with both feet!!”? I think that’s a perfect teachable moment, if you go about it properly.