Islamic Mad Dog Murders Dutch Filmmaker

[Rune]

@Mighty_Girl

Rune, let go on the aqvavit. What **Jayjay ** said.

gulp gulp

The shifting coalitions and wars in 1984 did not really represent enemies as such or any real threats to the state, rather they were opportune ways to rid society of excessive industry output and to focus the attention of its population. In the context of this thread the most obvious thing would be that you were on about the Islamic terrorists who killed Theo van Gogh. But even so, to say that Islamic terrorism in America is merely an opportune method for some sinister manipulative American government to manipulate its population (or as an outlet for US industry to blow off its excessive industry production) and in reality does not represent any real threat is to go into conspiracy overdrive, to completely miss the point and to be more than a little condescending of the 3000 deaths on 9/11. Whereas if you really meant to say that “the only terrorists who count are Islamic terrorists because the only terrorists that actually invaded US soil to attack were Islamic terrorists” that would be to completely miss the point of 1984 and the snippet you took from there.

However to stay in your hijack, there’s no debating that 9/11 was a singular spectacular and destructive terrorist attack that demanded a strong response. And why is it you think that America should be especially concerned about threats from terrorists or other kind of threats that don’t directly involve the US itself? Sure it would noble if the US took all the troubles of the world upon its shoulder, but why would you expect it to? Does your country? Mine doesn’t.

I just started on a new aqvavit if you want to join me. Skål! gulp gulp

[Rune]

@Roseworm

To TwistofFate:

Here is another update:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/06/international/europe/06dutch.html

But if it makes you feel better, just keep telling yourself, “ThereisnoWaronTerror, thereisnoWaronTerror, thereisnoWaronTerror…”

In the meantime, the bodies pile up and the storm gathers.

Also, it is speculated that the killer did not author the letter pinned to van Gogh’s chest. And that it in fact had more that one author, indicating a terrorist cell. Whether true, of course remains to be seen.

[Tamerlane]

@Rune

But it was my impression that there were some really bad blood between the Moslem Palestinians and Christian Palestinians, about as bad as between the Jews and Palestinians, and that was the reason so many (more) Christian Palestinians had fled, that some Christian Palestinians had even fled to Israel. I know a guy, a Christian Palestinian. Says he descends from Frankish crusaders, well he looks it, blond and light skinned, but I don’t know, he’s probably a bit crazy. He hates the Jews of course, but nowhere near as much as he hates the Muslim Palestinians.

Never have heard it as being anything so extreme ( though no accounting for individual idiosyncracies of course ). Tensions have certainly increased in recent years as Islamism has spread in the occupied territories and no doubt current immigration is helped along by this. But historically my understanding is that despite some sectarian tensions, both Christian and Muslim Arabs in the region have long presented a more or less common front towards Israel ( helped along, for excample, by the Christian Palestinian claim that the bulk of Arabs expelled from West Jerusalem by Israel in 1948 were Christian ).

• Tamerlane

[Mighty_Girl]

All I meant is to comment on the posts that seem to imply that terrorism is linked to Islam, when in reality other groups, religious or otherwise, have used the same methods before and some still do. Of course, if one ignores the above one can conveniently arrive to the conclusion that Terrorism = Islam, or viceversa.

[Rune]

@Mighty_Girl

All I meant is to comment on the posts that seem to imply that terrorism is linked to Islam, when in reality other groups, religious or otherwise, have used the same methods before and some still do. Of course, if one ignores the above one can conveniently arrive to the conclusion that Terrorism = Islam, or viceversa.

Why do you think you need to make that point? You think it’s more important to make the point that not all Moslems are terrorists than to address the very real dangers Moslems terrorists pose? Two days ago a man was brutally murdered, many other threatened by extremist Islamic terrorists as well as basic freedom of speech and democracy attacked, whom other have been harmed to a similar degree that you feel a need to belittle such vile attacks to redeem them?

Terrorism can be linked to Islam and at the same time have been used by other groups. I’d say that at this point it has been proved beyond doubt that Islam = Terrorism for some extremist interpretations of Islam. That doesn’t mean all Moslems are terrorists but it does mean that certain Moslems invariable, almost by definition, will be terrorists. In fact I strongly believe Moslems (and former Moslems) are the first and major victims of and the first to stand up against fundamentalist Islam. I also believe fundamentalist Islam is the only religious group in Europe today which use murder, violence and terror to further it’s objectives as well as the largest (if not absolutely only) group with the means and will to do so. It is a threat to democracy and it is a threat to freedom of speech. And no one is helped by neglecting to face this head on for fear of seeming racist, xenophobic, islamphobic or what not.

[gum]

Originally posted by **Mighty_Girl **

*All I meant is to comment on the posts that seem to imply that terrorism is linked to Islam, when in reality other groups, religious or otherwise, have used the same methods before and some still do. Of course, if one ignores the above one can conveniently arrive to the conclusion that Terrorism = Islam, or viceversa. *

Fuck all murderous groups, religious or otherwise. Okay?

&

Originally Posted by gum
whatever.

There’s no reasoning with something like that

That’s because I’m tired of reasoning. I’m tired of muslims trying to play the victim. HERE AND NOW. IN THE NETHERLANDS.

They are NOT victims.
They have everything that the average Dutch have. Each men of the group that has been arrested had a computer, the latest scooter and the latest Nikes. They have good jobs, good houses and prestige.

The only thing they *don’t * have is all the Dutch believing in their Allah.

[Gyrate]

@gum

I’m tired of muslims trying to play the victim. HERE AND NOW. IN THE NETHERLANDS.

They are NOT victims.

Would you be saying that if he’d killed Ayaan Hirsi Ali first?

[Rune]

@Gyrate

Would you be saying that if he’d killed Ayaan Hirsi Ali first?

I’ll let gum answer the obvious. But, just because this board prides itself on fighting ignorance and all that, note that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has renounced her faith - she’s no longer a Muslim.

Perhaps Ayaan hadn’t read Irshad:

Irshad," I would hear, "we need voices such as yours to help us open up this religion of our because if it doesn’t open up, we’re leaving it.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041102-032633-5233r.htm

[gum]

Originally posted by Gyrate

Would you be saying that if he’d killed Ayaan Hirsi Ali first?

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? You stupid puddle of diarrhea.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is my heroine. If you get your head out of your ass, you’d find the thread where I said so before van Gogh was slaughtered.

And I expect an apology.

[Hyperelastic]

@Mighty_Girl

All I meant is to comment on the posts that seem to imply that terrorism is linked to Islam, when in reality other groups, religious or otherwise, have used the same methods before and some still do. Of course, if one ignores the above one can conveniently arrive to the conclusion that Terrorism = Islam, or viceversa.

Your reasoning seems to be: not all terrorists are Islamic, therefore there is no link between Islam and terrorism. Or am I missing something?

[Mighty_Girl]

@Hyperelastic

Your reasoning seems to be: not all terrorists are Islamic, therefore there is no link between Islam and terrorism. Or am I missing something?

No, I am not. I am addressing posts like these:

@Roseworm

If you say the word “terrorist” to anyone in the world, the odds are about 99% that person is going to visualize a young, Islamic male - quiet, bearded, dark-eyed, murderous. Can Muslims be proud of this?

When she/he says ‘world’ she/he of course means the US. Here (outside the world?) people could also visualize ETA terrorists, some of which were exiled by the Spanish government and lived here.

[Rune]

As with the Salman Rushdie case, a good way to ensure the extremists at least don’t succeed in their objective of silencing the freedom of speech, is to get the material they want suppressed out there in much larger circulation that it ever would had they not murdered Theo van Gogh, regardless of whether it’s a good or bad movie.

Here’s a Dutch blog (http://www.zachtei.nl/) where you can download the movie Submission, if somebody has some free space online someplace it would be a good idea to copy it there to reduce the hit on his bandwith.
Here in AVI: http://kiwi.hlm.cyberhq.nl/mirror/submission/
And TORRENT: http://66.90.75.92/suprnova//torrents/2963/Theo%20Van%20Gogh_-Hirsi%20Ali-_Submission_xvid-avi.torrent

From zachtei:

Film Van Gogh online
Below I’ve reported on the rebroadcasting of the film Submission, which was directed by Theo van Gogh and which drew the ire of his murderer. Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, currently in hiding, devised the script. For those of you who are interested, it can be viewed here (44 megabytes, 10 minutes playing time). A Torrent file can be found here.
I’d be very happy if some of you could put up American, Canadian, British and Australian mirrors. If you have contacts at your local tv station, you might want to use your influence to get it broadcasted there. The best way to deal with these thugs is to not give in to their attempts to censor us. Let’s make sure as many people as possible see the film that radical Islamists don’t want us to.

[jacobe]

I love this board, but I am always very ashamed when these topics come up because a sinful amount of you blame the Muslims for the extremists. Is it just that y’all have no Muslim friends? It’s very easy to believe what the media preaches, but as people devoted to fighting ignorance, you think that you would be able to filter out the hysteria and see what’s really going on.

Angua, thank you for joining the boards and thank you for your courage. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to deal with this every single freakin’ day. I have asked my female Muslim friends to join the boards before, but there is still too much general anti-Muslim things being said for them to want to venture into here.

Maybe we need a ‘Ask the Muslim Woman’ thread, but if I were a Muslim woman, I wouldn’t want to try to combat everything that’s going to be thrown at me alone.

It would be a very noble cause for you to have ask the muslim woman thread.
However, I think it would be more noble if muslims discussed this amongst themselves as well. Im not getting a very good picture that this is an aberation amongst muslims on many of the Islamic forums Ive been to. Most of the members cried in joy that this man was killed that dared to slander thier deen.

By addressing and pacifying the nonmuslims here is all well and fine, but there can be no denying that there is a growing problem by some members in Islam that have no respect for the kufir.
I think your what would be a ‘chocolate muslim’ by the muslims at this board, kind of like a uncle tom that aims to please the kufir.

For those chocolate muslims. - Ummah.com - Muslim Forum

Here is the reaction by some muslims in regards to this slanderer of Islam

http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=1119

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45191

[The_Truth]

The murder of the Dutch filmmaker is hardly surprising, as these sorts of events will only increase in frequency in the coming years.

Europe has been extremely naive, and continue to be naive in regards to the massive immigration that has been taking place these past decades. Jihadists and Al-Qaeda friendly people have planted themselves in practically every single European country. The ironic thing about this killing is that the Netherlands has long been one of the most tolerant countries in regards to immigrants. Now Dutch politicians are talking about a “War upon Islamic Fundamentalism”, something even the USA hasn’t yet had the balls to do, in regards to naming the war.

The main battleplace for the war on terror is not Fallujah or Afghanistan, it is Europe, and this will become more and more evident as time goes by.

[Roseworm]

To The Truth:

I could not agree with you more. Every country in Europe will eventually experience its own 9-11.

[Mighty_Girl]

@Roseworm

To The Truth:

I could not agree with you more. Every country in Europe will eventually experience its own 9-11.

Channeling Miss Cleo much?

[Angua]

@jacobe

I think your what would be a ‘chocolate muslim’ by the muslims at this board, kind of like a uncle tom that aims to please the kufir.

Quite frankly, any forum of Muslims which condones these actions are not Muslims by any sense of the definition of Muslim – they are vile extremeists who have co-opted the name of a religion to further their own political aims who, quite frankly have no business calling themselves ones who follow the religion of peace.

Roseworm – you mean the Madrid bombings weren’t enough? Who exactly is the extremeist here?

[Roseworm]

To Angua:

I think you misunderstand me and my statement: “Every country in Europe will eventually experience its own 9-11.”

Right now each country in Europe seems to be wrapped up in its own little cocoon of denial and self-delusion. “We have no terrorist problem. Oh, no, they will never harm us. Goodness gracious, what an absurd notion.” This is wishful thinking. It is also counter-productive to the point of national suicide.

Sooner or later, each country will get its wake-up call. It will not have to involve a lot of deaths. In the Netherlands, the murder of a single man - Theo van Gogh - seems to have considerably riled up the Dutch. Good for them.

Angua, if you are suggesting that the Madrid train bombings should have been a wake-up call for everyone in Europe, you could not be more right. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case. Even more tragically, the Spaniards responded by caving in. To their eternal shame, they threw out their pro-war, pro-America government and all but begged for mercy.

Winston Churchill once observed that an appeaser is one who “hopes the crocodile will eat him last.” The crocodile is still out there, and it is still hungry for Spain. The terrorists claimed that the Madrid atrocity was an attempt to force Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. That was a cruel, opportunistic lie. The fact is, the Madrid attack was being planned before the US invaded Iraq.

What is the terrorist goal in Spain, then? Osama bin Laden himself has explicitly stated that he wants to re-establish the caliphate in Spain. Their goal is nothing less than to impose an Islamic government and society on the Iberian peninsula and stamp out all vestiges of Western Civilization there.

And that is their goal for every country in Europe - and the world. It is insane. It can never happen…

Unless Europe has lost the will to resist.

The day of reckoning will come, for each country in its turn, when it wakes up to find cruel reality leaping for its throat.

More than any other European nation, France has sought to curry favor with terrorists. The French government operates a radio station which broadcasts anti-American propaganda throughout the Islamic world. Through its perfidious actions, France believes that it has made itself safe from terrorism. But History does not lack a sense of irony.

There are 5 million Muslims inside France. They have been treated like second and third-class citizens for over a generation. They are hostile and unassimilated. Their resentment and fanaticism grows daily.

When the day of reckoning comes for France, it will be a very cruel day, indeed.

The storm gathers.

[jjimm]

Jesus you’re melodromatic. And ill-informed.

@Roseworm

Right now each country in Europe seems to be wrapped up in its own little cocoon of denial and self-delusion. “We have no terrorist problem. Oh, no, they will never harm us. Goodness gracious, what an absurd notion.”

Oh please.

Were you not aware that Paris was bombed by Islamists several times during the 1990s? That it was France that first alerted its allies to the growth of violent Islamism? You don’t think the French know Al Qaeda was targeting the Eiffel Tower way before it turned its attentions to the WTC? That the Strasbourg Christmas market was to be an Al Qaeda’s first major target in December 2000?

Most of these plots were foiled.

Most British people are aware that something’s going to happen soon courtesy of Al Qaeda. But Britain has been handling domestic terrorism for many years and has a - usually non-militaristic - way of fighting the problem.

We agree with fighting terror, but by doing it intelligently. Intel, police work, double agents, etc., are more effective against the threat than stirring up a hornet’s nest of global terror recruitment by ham-fisted gung-ho empire building in countries unconnected to the problem.

[Roseworm]

To jjimm:

“Melodramatic”? Moi?