I meant the US.
Sorry Gum, I have to disagree with you there. I’ve been following the Dutch papers online and feel there are terrifying shifts to the right across the board. It’s a changed country from when I lived there. 
I think that your link about the spitting incident from the Dutch press rather weakens your argument about the Dutch press being overly politically correct.
I also think that you helping battered women is very admirable.
Has the full text of the pages pinned on Theo van Gogh’s chest been printed in the Dutch newspapers?
“We’ve always been at war with Eurasia”* Forget about Vasque separatists, Irish Catholics supported by US citizens, anti-abortion Christians, crazy vegans, Israeli settlers (didn’t they use terrorism at the beginning of the state of Israel?); we’ve always been at war with Muslims terrorists. How short a memory we have!
*We should have a corollary to the Godwin law that says something about 1984.
aw. Come now. You’re abusing the masters words. When you wave such an awful attack away as inconsequential detail conjured up by the authorities to manipulate the masses you reveal yourself not as a woman walking in the footsteps of Winston Smith as much as a disciple of O’Brien twisting facts to fit preconceived ideologues as well as a political nihilist, which Orwell would have had nothing but contempt for. Some things are worth standing up for, fight for, even kill and die for. Orwell knew that. Citing Orwell, you should know that. Democracy is such a thing, and freedom of speech is, both of which were the primary target with the attack on Theo van Gogh. Another is that not all facts are infinite malleable. 2 + 2 = 4. When a man is gunned down in broad daylight, it is murder. When the reason he is gunned down is something he said, it’s an attack on free speech and democracy. When a note detailing the threats to others is pinned to his chest with the bloody knife used to stab him and cut his throat, it’s terror. And when the note details Islamic motives, it’s Islamic Terrorism. Those are facts. Deal with it.
Not just Ayaan, but several others as well. I’ll also see if I can find anything on it. I was watching it on the news just a short while ago. Sad, scary stuff.
Except that her post wasn’t about this incident at all. It was about the American attitude that the only terrorists who count are Islamic terrorists, because the only terrorists that actually invaded US soil to attack were Islamic terrorists. The US couldn’t care less about the other terrorist organizations, really, and paid next to no attention to them or to their host nations’ troubles with them, until we got punched in the gut by bin Laden.
That was her point, not that the authorities were manufacturing this murder.
I realize the others have made this point, but I just want to make sure everyone here understands that it’s not up to the Muslims to get rid of Islamic terrorism anymore than it is for Christians to stamp out the likes of fanatical fundamentalism.
Who do I blame for this recent upset in the election where all these ‘Christian’ people voted anti-gay measures into laws? Not the Christians.
I love this board, but I am always very ashamed when these topics come up because a sinful amount of you blame the Muslims for the extremists. Is it just that y’all have no Muslim friends? It’s very easy to believe what the media preaches, but as people devoted to fighting ignorance, you think that you would be able to filter out the hysteria and see what’s really going on.
Angua, thank you for joining the boards and thank you for your courage. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to deal with this every single freakin’ day. I have asked my female Muslim friends to join the boards before, but there is still too much general anti-Muslim things being said for them to want to venture into here.
Maybe we need a ‘Ask the Muslim Woman’ thread, but if I were a Muslim woman, I wouldn’t want to try to combat everything that’s going to be thrown at me alone.
I’m sorry too PookahMacPhellimey, but I disagree with you. If you still follow the NOS news and read [amonst others] ‘Het Parool’, you know how terribly careful they are not to say one un-PC word. Sadly most of our news and newspapers aren’t translated in English.
It wasn’t until the other media showed an eye-witness who told us the man wore traditional muslim clothes that we knew it was indeed, a muslim. [later ofcourse verified]
Rune, First: I want to thank you for your condolences again. Most people on this board seem to think some muslims are the victims.
That’s a fallacy.
Theo van Gogh was the victim.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali will be the next victim
Our freedom of speech is the victim
Second: You can find the letter [with spelling mistakes and all] here:
http://www.nos.nl/nieuws/achtergronden/briefverdachtevangogh.html
No translation. I’ll translate the last bit. [An open letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali]
“Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Amerika, ten onder gaat.”
“Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Europa, ten onder gaat.”
“Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Nederland, ten onder gaat.”
“Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Hirshi Ali, ten onder gaat.”
“Ik weet zeker dat jij, O ongelovige fundamentalist, ten onder gaat.”
“I’m sure that you, Oh America will perish”
“I’m sure that you, Oh Europe will perish”
“I’m sure that you, Oh Netherlands will perish”
“I’m sure that you, Oh Hirshi [wrongly spelled] Ali, will perish”
“I’m sure that you, Oh atheïst fundamentalist will perish”
btw: Muhammed B. didn’t act alone. 6 others are arrested.
And about the graffiti and spitting on van Gogh’s portrait? It can always get uglier:
When a teacher on a highschool told his muslim students van Gogh was murdered by a muslim, loud applause was heard.
But hey, boys will be boys, huh.
and this again:
From http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=13656&name=Prosecutor’s+anger+over+release+of+letters
The letter left with Van Gogh’s body contained a direct threat to anti-Islamic MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The Liberal VVD parliamentary leader, Jozias van Aartsen, and Amsterdam Mayor
Job Cohen was also mentioned in the letter.
But the letter also contained anti-Semitic statements and threatened the Netherlands, Europe and US with destruction. A second letter — found with the suspect — was a suicide note.
Van Gogh was shot and stabbed to death on an Amsterdam street on Tuesday, and a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan suspect was arrested after a shootout with police. Public outrage has engulfed the Netherlands.
Experts claim the style of the letter threatening Hirsi Ali with death indicates that it originates from a radical Muslim organisation with close ties to terror organisations.
Meanwhile, Van Aartsen said the letters indicated that the Netherlands was in the grip of a holy war of Jihad and urged for more intensive surveillance of a greater number of Islamic extremists, requiring an expansion of the intelligence services. At present, the AIVD is monitoring 150 extremists in the Netherlands.
gum: *Most people on this board seem to think some muslims are the victims. *
That’s because some Muslims are victims. Not the violent extremists, of course: on the contrary, they’re the perpetrators. But the vast majority of non-violent, non-extremist Muslims in Europe are suffering as a result of this. They’re potentially in danger (much more danger than ordinary non-Muslims like you or me) from extremist Muslims who consider them traitors if they protest violent actions, and they’re in danger from prejudiced and angry people in the majority population who tar them all with the same violent-extremist brush.
A colleague of mine today told me about coming home on the train from Leiden where there was a guy yelling about how Muslims are shit and offering to beat up any Muslim in the train. Real PC, huh? :rolleyes:
Of course it’s not as bad as murdering an “anti-Muslim” filmmaker, or even as bad as cheering his death, but that still doesn’t make it right.
gum: *Most people on this board seem to think some muslims are the victims. *
That’s because some Muslims are victims. Not the violent extremists, of course: on the contrary, they’re the perpetrators. But the vast majority of non-violent, non-extremist Muslims in Europe are suffering as a result of this. They’re potentially in danger (much more danger than ordinary non-Muslims like you or me) from extremist Muslims who consider them traitors if they protest violent actions, and they’re in danger from prejudiced and angry people in the majority population who tar them all with the same violent-extremist brush.
A colleague of mine today told me about coming home on the train from Leiden where there was a guy yelling about how Muslims are shit and offering to beat up any Muslim in the train. Real PC, huh? :rolleyes:
Of course it’s nowhere near anything like as bad as murdering an “anti-Muslim” filmmaker, or even as bad as cheering his death, but that still doesn’t make it right. It’s no use pretending that Westerners are all tolerant and understanding people who would never treat any Muslim worse than they deserved.
whatever.
Quite. Whilst I realise that it may be beneficial, I think that personally, I’d have a hard time coping with the ‘emotional’ impact, so to speak.
I’m lucky, that in the UK, the anti-Muslim sentiment isn’t as widespread, and groups like the Muslim Council of Britain, and the Council of Indian Muslims are not afraid to condemn the extremists.
from the other thread
From http://www.xposed.com/headline_news/52_ds_1190458.aspx
Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner said Thursday the note, stuck to the body with a knife, contained a “direct warning” to the screenwriter, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born member of parliament who has outraged fellow Muslims by criticizing Islamic customs and the failure of Muslim families to adopt Dutch ways. She had been under police protection before the slaying.
Donner said the way the five-page letter “was presented indicates that it is not from one person, but a movement.” It was neatly typed and written in Dutch and Arabic. A testament found in the suspect’s pocket was titled “Drenched in blood” and “these are my last words.” *
The letter is titled “Open Letter to Hirsi Ali” and threatens a holy war against infidels, America, Europe, the Netherlands and Hirsi Ali. “Saifu Deen alMuwahhied,” or “the unifying sword of religion” is written at the bottom of the last page, apparently as a signature.
“It is worrying because it gives the impression it is not the message of an individual, but a wider organization,” Donner said. Security has been increased for individuals considered possible targets, including Hirsi Ali and members of her party, he said.
The letter read that Islam would “be victorious through the blood of martyrs.” It contained apparent quotes from the Quran, and verses of poetry. “Only the death will separate the truth from the lies,” it said
&
From http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/10101861.htm
The threat left by Van Gogh’s killer carries the ideology of a fundamentalist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or “Repentance and Flight,” which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch media reported.
The letter, in Dutch and Arabic, predicts the downfall of the “infidel enemies of Islam” in Europe, including the Netherlands, and the United States.
“I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down,” it said.
The letter also asserted: “It is a fact that Dutch politics is dominated by many Jews.”
“What do you think of the fact that there is a Jew in power in Amsterdam?” it said, referring to Amsterdam’s Mayor Job Cohen.
*The killer was shot in the leg. He’s fine. :rolleyes:
To gum:
Thank you again for the update. It is plain that the murder of Theo van Gogh is not the act of a lone, psychotic killer, but the first of a series of assassinations being planned by a terrorist organization.
Rune, let go on the aqvavit. 
What **Jayjay ** said.
There’s no reasoning with something like that.
No, there’s only proof that one guy is involved.
To TwistofFate:
Here is another update:
But if it makes you feel better, just keep telling yourself, “ThereisnoWaronTerror, thereisnoWaronTerror, thereisnoWaronTerror…”
In the meantime, the bodies pile up and the storm gathers.