Israel 60 years: A very improper celebration indeed

The BBQ Pit
41

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Right, because being in Europe totally makes your state responsible for the Holocaust. Even if you aren’t German. Or if your country didn’t exist yet. Or you were neutral. Makes perfect sense.

What, were they sold out of the really wide brushes or something?
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I’m not saying that they were. If I did that, I would be just like the OP. I’m not assigning collective blame to the Europeans, I just think that a non-Jewish European can never understand what it’s like to be a Jew and why a place like Israel where Jews can be free from the European persecution of the past is important.

And it was more than the Holocaust - Jews were oppressed in every European country, for hundreds of years before Hitler was even born. And when it comes to the Holocaust, more countries than just Germany were complicit in it.

42

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Few nations have clean hands. We Americans built our country on the bones of the Indians. In hindsight maybe it shouldn’t have been done, or could have been done with a lot less killing and displacement, and I hope we’ve learned enough to do nothing of the kind in the future; but it’s done, can’t be undone, and we have a lot else to be proud of as a country and a perfect right to celebrate it every Fourth of July. Israel, however it got there, is a nation as much as any other, and a nation of some great achievements (like, just surviving this long). Why can’t they have an event of national pride?
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Good post, Glutton. I seem to rarely share your views but I cannot disagree with this.

43

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Have a nice piece fruit. Or some lubricant. :slight_smile:
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:dubious:

Hey! Leave me outta this !!

44

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Wildfire, wherever you’re from in “C Europe,” I can pretty much guarantee that your people murdered thousands of my people - if you’re in Germany, make that millions. The nations of Europe savagely brutalized the Jewish people for centuries - through Crusades, pogroms, “passion plays” that were followed by Jew-slaughtering, the Inquisition, and the fucking Holocaust - you have no right, absolutely NO right, to make judgments about Israel.

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Right, because being in Europe totally makes your state responsible for the Holocaust. Even if you aren’t German. Or if your country didn’t exist yet. Or you were neutral.

Makes perfect sense to me.
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Look, I know you’re not that bright, but you can read, can’t you? You did see the part about the “Crusades, pogroms, “passion plays” that were followed by Jew-slaughtering, the Inquisition, and the fucking Holocaust”?

By and large, the nations of Europe treated the Jews brutally and inhumanely for a thousand years or so … now, you can agree or disagree with that, but you can’t sweep it under the rug with a “that country was neutral” or “heck, Slobovia didn’t exist then, so their hands are clean, makes perfect sense to me”.

People keep wanting to portray this as innocents on one side, and evil monsters on the other. Life is rarely that simple.

Having said that, my great-grandfather ran a slave ship. However, I would not agree with Argent Towers that because of that history I have “no right to make judgements” about the evil effects of slavery.

Finally, does Israel have a “right” to exist? The question has no meaning. No country has a “right” to be a country. They just are a country, however they might have gotten there. Some are ancient, some are new, some were created on purpose, some got there by accident of history, some were born peacefully, some by internal revolution and secession, some were the result of huge struggle and fighting, some were created out of the whole cloth by occupying powers or colonial empires. Panama was created by a fiat of the US … does that mean they don’t have a right to exist?

Once created, countries have a life of their own, and have just as much “right” to exist as any other country.

w.

45

I think a lot of the people who argue that Israel has “no right to exist” are just using arbitrary measurements to judge whether a nation is actually a nation or not. Like BG said, the US is built on top of the ashes of the Indians. This was a historical atrocity - but we can’t go back in time and do it differently. As far as most people are concerned, the US is a nation. Some say Israel is not a nation, presumably because it hasn’t been around long enough and it is “occupying” Arab land. Didn’t every single nation at one point in its history form by occupying someone else’s land? Is England not a real nation because the Normans dominated the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons? For hundreds of years Europe was an ever-changing battlefield of tribes slaughtering each other over territory. Are the nations of Europe “real nations?”

Israel has a lot of blood on its hands - unfortunately, everyone else does too.

46

[QUOTE=Wildfire**MM]
Al lot are wrong with those jews (if you are referring to those immigrant-zionist with a nationalistic agenda). The problem is that there already lived a people there when they starter their massive immigration and that they had to be forced away with violence that include ethnic cleansing, war and genocide … an as we have seen for decades now - a brutal occupation that increase each year. All this to create a state for gods chosen people with a diving right to do anything to achieve their goals

They celebrate that Israel are 60 years old - I ask: whats there to celebrate ??
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Yeah and Jews lived there prior to the Palestinians…so what?

Are you American? The same issue violently occured in the 19th Century in terms of displaced peoples.

Israel as it exists now was indeed a UN creation out of sympathy, amidst other things. But that gives the Jews no less right to defend themselves as they see fit against hostile neighbors as any other countrydoes. The fact that some Arab nations/groups refuse to “recognize” Israel as a country is irrelevant.

Israel IS a country and an ally. We would be well-served to militarily support this alliance.

47

[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
This story sounds so familiar. I think there’s another country with exactly this same history, right down to the bulldozing of a well-established native people, and they’ll also be celebrating this achievement in a few months. Starts with a “U” and I think it might be south of Canada. I’m sure I’ll think of it in a moment.
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Yes, and that well-established native people did the same thing to the previous occupants.

Living here in Minnesota, I’m roughly on the border line between Sioux native people and Chippewa native people. Except that the Sioux ones say that they are the actual ‘native’ ones, but were driven off their lands and forced to move west by the relentless war & ethnic cleansing campaign of the Chippewa. (They would probably still be at each others throats, except that the white men came along and gave them a common enemy.)

I expect that if you went back further in history, you would find that the Sioux people gained the Minnesota-Wisconsin lands by killing off or exiling some other people.

Pretty much all the useful lands on earth have been occupied by different groups over time, and most of them took the land by removing the previous residents. Usually in bloody, war-like ways. I don’t think any group can claim their ancestors had clean hands.

48

I once heard a professor of American Indian studies say that the native-language names (for example, “Tsa-la-gi” is the native-language name of the Cherokee nation) of several nations came from terms roughly meaning “the one people”, “the principle people,” or “the original people”. Not to mention the numerous cultures throughout history that regarded their homelands as the center of the world (i.e., the Chinese). One can see how this line of thinking would lead to some occasional slight disagreements.

I don’t agree with the more radically right-wing members of the Israeli government, but whenever someone decides to single out Israel as some maniacal land-mongering entity, as if they invented the practice or are even among the chief perpetrators of our time, my response generally is :rolleyes:

49

Why this discussion of U.S. sins (which I don’t necessarily disagree with) when the OP isn’t American?

50

You know, I really hate to speak ill of the dead, and especially of such a terrific person as David Simmons. But it’s becoming more and more obvious as this thread progreses: during his Air Force stint in World War II, he missed one.

51

[QUOTE=Wildfire**MM]
The problem is that there already lived a people there when they starter their massive immigration and that they had to be forced away with violence that include ethnic cleansing, war and genocide.
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Yeah, well they are there now and no one is able to do anything about it as their neighbours know after trying many times. So, suck it up, Sunshine, and get on with your life.
The Palestinians have a choice. They can either continue to stick bombs up their asses and light them off in crowded cafes, or they can try to make the best of it by not antagonizing the ‘evil’ Israelis and giving them excuses to blow the shit out of their loved ones. But, I figure they don’t actually care about supposed loved ones if they continued fighting a fight they couldn’t possibly win, anyways.

52

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
You know, I really hate to speak ill of the dead, and especially of such a terrific person as David Simmons. But it’s becoming more and more obvious as this thread progreses: during his Air Force stint in World War II, he missed one.
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I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Anyway, the point is that Wildfire is a moronic, vermin-infested open sore of a “man” who seriously needs to go jam a donkey dick down his left nostril and then snort a line of angel dust with his right. Please, Wildfire, stick your needle-sized dick in an electric Boston pencil sharpener and don’t remove it until it’s been shredded into tiny little bits of the festering stupidity that comprises every molecule of your physical being. Fuck your mother, you’re an uneducated and ill-informed simpering little devil who lacks confidence and uses phony kinetics, and if I were your mother, I would have excreted your larval embryo into the toilet and flushed it deep into the fucking sewer before you were even born. I hope the next time you sit down on a bus, a 400 pound obese homeless woman with sagging breasts hanging from her tattered blouse shoves her filth-encrusted fingers into your mouth for no reason, and I hope you lick them clean. I think it would be a good idea if you went directly to your local butcher, asked for the oldest, rankest, most disgusting cut of horse-cock that he has moldering and rotting in the back of a faulty, leaking refrigerator, took it home, fried it up and then wolfed it down with a garnish of pubic hair and dead cockroaches. I mean really, you think you have any chance at a normal life? I’m trying to picture what you look like right now - I’m visualizing a pale and sallow face with a nose long and hooked, like a primitive cutting tool, several rolls of fat beneath the weak chin despite the sunken cheeks and a filthy growth of matted beard, patchy and uneven, coating your face like a mess of buzzing flies. Beneath this, a neck filled with pustules, varicose veins and lumpy growths. The flabby yet flimsy arms are covered in crude, faded tattoos and track marks, and the torso is covered with a worn tunic, stained with come and tomato juice.

53

The original post was idiotic ranting and obvious lunacy. It doesn’t deserve a rational retort, which I sadly realized after I had typed 3 paragraphs trying to explain why nations built by immigrants aren’t necessarily or automatically evil.

Oh well. All I can say is go fuck yourself, and pretty please stop smearing your hate all over the place.

54

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Yes it is, and good for them.
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I am interested to see it is now openly stated among the US military that the war in Iraq was started by the US for the benefit of Israel. Principally, I wonder why it was so difficult to say so beforehand, or agree when the proposition was raised.

It is apparent that an older generation of Americans is happy to give Israel a perpetual dispensation on account of Jewish history, but you are a younger man than that and your position is more difficult to position.

55

[QUOTE=Magiver]
…And you don’t have the slightest clue what the word genocide means. …

Countries like Iran call for the extermination (the genocide) of Israel…
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Ahem.

56

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
So the argument is that due to the mistreatment of the Palestinians in Israel, Israel should nuke itself. Hmmm. I don’t exactly see how that’d qualify as a better deal for the Palestinians, given that they live there too.
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One explanation is that he meant a judicious application of nuclear weaponry could interdict and render the entire nation unihabitable for a 5 year period, yet leave a majority of the population living.

The Christian and Islamic population could evacuate to the neigbours for the duration. And the Jewish population: Much further away, in perpetuity.

It’s one interpretation.

57

Like I said in that other antisemite thread - Good on Israel - may it have many more years, and hopefully many more peaceful ones!

(I’m sure you all know no fan of the occupations and what I see as the quasi-apartheid-Lite situation there and the religious exceptionalism currently constitutionally enshrined, but I’d rather there was an Israel than not, if you have to have nation-states. Compared to its neighbours, it’s a model state)

58

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
…Wildfire, you fuckin’ asshole. I’m serious. Jam that poker as far up your ass as you can get it, and while you’re at it, go stick a goddamn fishhook in your urethra…
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[QUOTE=Polycarp]
You know, I really hate to speak ill of the dead, and especially of such a terrific person as David Simmons. But it’s becoming more and more obvious as this thread progreses: during his Air Force stint in World War II, he missed one.
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Wishing death.

59

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]

All your posts suck. You can’t spell or construct a mature-sounding sentence - everything you write looks like it was typed by a fucking fourth-grade special ed student.
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To be fair, his location is given as C. Europe; English may be his second language.
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To be accurate, there is no deficiency in the spelling or construction of the OP. I popped by just because I noticed.

60

It’s quite possible to stick a poker up your ass or a fishhook in your urethra and not die. Believe me, I thought about that before I wrote it - I don’t want to violate our rules.

Did I mention that Wildfire should take a big long drink from the long, rusty, trough-style urinal at the Aggies stadium at Texas A&M? Really savor it - gargle it for a long time, then swallow deeply. After that, kindly fuck your mother. If your mother is lying in a coffin six feet under the ground in C. Europe, then dig her up with a fucking rickety old spade and fuck her corpse. If her corpse has rotted away into a skeleton, then take her skull and skull-fuck it after jamming her femur up your ass.