Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade Cancelled Due To Violence

[Miller]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
I love that tolerance goes in only one direction - the old must give way to the new.
[/quote]

Actually, tolerance can never go in only one direction. Those who don’t show it, do not receive it.

But somehow, it’s acceptable for a group that knows their sexuality is, and has been for thousands of years, considered abominable to a certain religion to make a point of proudly parading it in front of that religion’s most fundamentalist adherents? Is that not also intolerant?

No, it’s not remotely intolerant.

I’m not condoning the violence. But respect is a two-way street. Orthodox Jews in other cities don’t bat an eye at Gay Pride Parades; but it’s a special Chutzpah of the local gay-rights crowd to feel that they need to have one in Jerusalem, of all cities, that passes through Meah Shearim, of all neighborhoods.

Because, of course, there are no gays in Jerusalem, and certainly none in Meah Shearim.

Wonderful. So, tolerance is only reserved for beliefs that are in line with one’s own.

No, generally speaking, one does not “tolerate” something one agrees with. That would be “support.” “Tolerate” is how you treat things you disagree with or dislike. I support gay rights groups. I tolerate homophobic organizations like Focus on Family. That is to say, I do not try to harm them or censure them or block them from political access. I can still call the dicks, and argue that their politics are evil and bigoted, but I tolerate them.

You know, these Haredim don’t go out of their way to look for trouble. They don’t try to push “Intelligent Design” textbooks on the Israeli public school system, they don’t put up big “Ten Commandments” tablets in courthouses. They try to live mostly in isolated communities where they can raise their families with as little non-religious influence touching them. But every so often, some non-religious folk get this bug up their butt that they need to invade these enclaves with blatant shows of non-religiosity, and somehow, the problem lies with these traditional folk who are otherwise content to live and let live.

At which point they riot for three days straight. Yeah, these are some truly harmless, inoffensive people you got there.

There’s more respect for the Amish in the hyper-techno-connected United States than for Jews observing the Torah in the city declared holy by the Torah. The Haredim certainly have their prejudices, but to push those in their face is a form of intolerance just the same.

Was the parade breaking a law by going through that neighborhood? Were they forbidden to be there? Were they trespassing? No? Then the people who live there need to suck it the fuck up and deal with the fact that they live in a city with people who are different than them.

And for the record, I do have respect for the Haredim, for those aspects of their lives that are respectable. The parts that aren’t respectable, I do not respect. Their homophobia is not something I respect, and they do not get a special pass from criticism on that score because they’re religious. I don’t know from sin, but I damned well know evil, and the attitudes these people have kills. There are men and women living in that community right now who are tortured daily by the conflict between how they were born and how their society views them. No one deserves to live like that. These attitudes are evil, and they need to stop. I won’t prevent them from holding or espousing them. No, I tolerate their prejudices. But I can still speak out against them. The actions of these people are shameful. A just God would weep to see his children treat each other so.

And the same goes for the Amish.

[cmkeller]

Diogenes:

How are religious folks harmed by somebody else having a parade?

They want to raise their children with minimal tempation toward sin or heresy, until as adults they know enough about their faith to confront alternate points of view.

There are religious groups who literally think that Jews are devils. Would that mean that it would be “intolerant” for Jews to walk past them wearing black hats and rekeleth and sidelocks?

Quite frankly, it would. I obviously don’t agree with those folks, and I wouldn’t condone violence on their part (and I hope I was clear that I don’t condone it on the part of the Haredim), but yes, it would be intolerant. If multi-cultural tolerance means anything at all, it has to apply to cultures that you disagree with on substantial, life-altering issues as well as to those you aren’t a member of but merely find quaint.

[Captain_Amazing]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
You know, these Haredim don’t go out of their way to look for trouble. They don’t try to push “Intelligent Design” textbooks on the Israeli public school system, they don’t put up big “Ten Commandments” tablets in courthouses.
[/QUOTE]

No, they don’t do that. They also don’t serve in the army, are one of the big reasons there’s no secular marriage in Israel, take welfare because they’d rather study Torah than work, force stores to close on Sabbath, etc. And they’ve got Shas, they’ve got United Torah Judaism. So it’s not like they just want to be left alone. They want to actively get involved in politics and pursue policies that affect all Israelis. So this makes their beliefs, their attitudes, and their actions as open to disagreement and criticism as any other group that’s trying to influence society and government.

[cmkeller]

Captain Amazing:

No, they don’t do that. They also don’t serve in the army…take welfare because they’d rather study Torah than work,

Gross over-generalization

force stores to close on Sabbath, etc.

Not true

And they’ve got Shas, they’ve got United Torah Judaism. So it’s not like they just want to be left alone. They want to actively get involved in politics and pursue policies that affect all Israelis. So this makes their beliefs, their attitudes, and their actions as open to disagreement and criticism as any other group that’s trying to influence society and government.

And they handle “disagreement and criticism” as well as anyone. But a Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem and especially in Meah Shearim is more than disagreement, it’s in-your-face desecration. They might as well be performing strip-teases in synagogues.

[jayjay]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
And they handle “disagreement and criticism” as well as anyone. But a Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem and especially in Meah Shearim is more than disagreement, it’s in-your-face desecration. They might as well be performing strip-teases in synagogues.
[/QUOTE]

Is Meah Shearim a public street or some sort of private neighborhood? If the former, then tough. It’s a public street. If the Haredim want to go be ultra-ultra-Orthodox away from the unbelievers, they can go found their own town and wall it up. But if this is a public street, their options include secluding themselves in their houses during the parade or going to visit Aunt Tova in Bethlehem. Their options do not include rioting for three days. Under any law, secular or religious.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
But a Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem and especially in Meah Shearim is more than disagreement, it’s in-your-face desecration. They might as well be performing strip-teases in synagogues.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t imagine how I could disagree with this more. Gays live there too, do they not? They have every right to celebrate in the streets and if people who don’t agree with it want to go hide in synagogues fine. Gays (probably) aren’t going to chase them out and tickle them with feather boas.

[Noone_Special]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
You know, these Haredim don’t go out of their way to look for trouble. They don’t try to push “Intelligent Design” textbooks on the Israeli public school system, they don’t put up big “Ten Commandments” tablets in courthouses. They try to live mostly in isolated communities where they can raise their families with as little non-religious influence touching them.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, (excuse my French) Bullshit! Have you ever, actually, like lived here for a while? There are so many fucking ways that religion, and especially the Haredim, fuck with my life, that it isn’t even funny.
I go to the army and protect them so that they can send able-bodied 20-year-old sto terrorize their conceived enemy du jour.
I pay gazzilion % income tax so that they can “study Torah” (and work on the black market on the side)
I can’t marry a non-Jew. I can’t marry a Jewish girl in a civil ceremony. I can’t get state support to help bury my relatives in a non-religious cemetary (where Og forbid I might visit their grave on Saturday, when I have time).
If I don’t have a car, I can’t enjoy my weekend, because there is no public transportation.
Until about 10 years ago, I couldn’t go out to a restaurant or a movie on Friday night in many parts of the country. I couldn’t go do my shopping on Saturday when I have time (I’m busy working all week to pay those taxes so they can sponge off me. Or going to Miluim (reserve duty) in order to defend their dear little butts so they can terrorize other people they don’t agree with)
And yes, they even still have an inordinate amount of influence on public schools’ curricula – although of course they have their own schools, funded by the state, with 15 kids in each class – because if there are 30 kids in the age group, they can’t have a single class like we do – that would force boys and girls to sit together in the same class. So what if everyone elses’ children study in classes with 35 children? And where they don’t have to teach pesky subjects like World History, Civics, non-religious reading of the Bible, or for that matter proper knowledge of English and Math

…

They want live and let live? They better damn well start off by showing us seculars and atheists that, for a fucking change, they are willing to let live, and not only let others let them live.

Comparison to the Amish, my foot. Don’t insult my intelligence.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

On NPR, a rabbi helpfully explained that ‘This is the Holy Land, not the Homo Land.’ well that clears that right up, now I understand.

[Nava]

[QUOTE=Cisco]
I’m with you here; this confuses the hell out of me. Right now in my office I know of a black guy who hates gays, a gay guy who hates Mexicans, a Mexican who hates Native Americans, and 2 Christians who hate anyone who is at all happy. Mind you, these are just the people that I know of who are brash enough to talk openly about their bigotry at work.
[/QUOTE]

Add my aunt, a Catalan who thinks people should not be allowed to immigrate to Catalonia - I keep asking her if this includes 3 of her 4 grandparents but she refuses to answer.

My parish lends its biggest meeting room to an African pastor. It’s kind of cool, sometimes we’ll be having Mass and hear a thundering HALLELLLUUUUUUUUJA BROTHER from somewhere beyond the altar The pastor was telling one of the fathers how recently he’d been introduced to a guy who was new in town and the new guy starts congratulating him and saying he waaaay wants to be part of the Church and how much he hates having to deal with those heathen Catholics. From the pastor’s retelling, the guy’s expression when he was informed that “we meet at the Franciscan church, entrance is through the side street” must have been priceless.

An ex-coworker of mine wears a cross, a star of david and a crescent as “medals”. Says he got the star first, as a present from someone he made friends with while visiting the Holy Land, and it got him so many stares and started so many conversations from random strangers that he decided to add the other two. If he feels like having an interesting conversation and he’s in a public place and doesn’t know anybody, pretty much all he’s got to do is let the necklace show. Many of them start by people yelling at him and end with them buying him coffee, he claims.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
I love that tolerance goes in only one direction - the old must give way to the new.

But somehow, it’s acceptable for a group that knows their sexuality is, and has been for thousands of years, considered abominable to a certain religion to make a point of proudly parading it in front of that religion’s most fundamentalist adherents? Is that not also intolerant?

I’m not condoning the violence. But respect is a two-way street. Orthodox Jews in other cities don’t bat an eye at Gay Pride Parades; but it’s a special Chutzpah of the local gay-rights crowd to feel that they need to have one in Jerusalem, of all cities, that passes through Meah Shearim, of all neighborhoods.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe they’re just trying to make a point. Real-y things are more important than pretend-y things.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
Wonderful. So, tolerance is only reserved for beliefs that are in line with one’s own.

You know, these Haredim don’t go out of their way to look for trouble. They don’t try to push “Intelligent Design” textbooks on the Israeli public school system, they don’t put up big “Ten Commandments” tablets in courthouses. They try to live mostly in isolated communities where they can raise their families with as little non-religious influence touching them. But every so often, some non-religious folk get this bug up their butt that they need to invade these enclaves with blatant shows of non-religiosity, and somehow, the problem lies with these traditional folk who are otherwise content to live and let live.

There’s more respect for the Amish in the hyper-techno-connected United States than for Jews observing the Torah in the city declared holy by the Torah. The Haredim certainly have their prejudices, but to push those in their face is a form of intolerance just the same.
[/QUOTE]

You know, they always have the option of NOT ATTENDING THE PARADE. If they want to separate from the real world, joining it is not the way to go about it.

[Otto]

@cmkeller

Wonderful. So, tolerance is only reserved for beliefs that are in line with one’s own.

If those beliefs rewuire or even condone physical violence against another person, then yes, paint me as “intolerant” of those beliefs. Anyone can believe whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. Makes me no never mind if, in the privacy of their own heads, some segment of extremist Judaism thinks that gay people will burn in the firel pit of Hell forever. But, as soon as they bring those views into a dimension other than Hell, by for example committing violence against other people, then their beliefs get zero respect and zero tolerance.

Not to get all Godwin on anyone’s ass, but there were certain segments of the human population who, about 60 years ago, decided that their beliefs about Jews (and Communists, gypsies, homosexuals and others) justified killing several million of them. if there’s any segment of the current human race that should understand the concept of “live and let live” it’s the Jews.

@cmkeller

They want to raise their children with minimal tempation toward sin or heresy, until as adults they know enough about their faith to confront alternate points of view.

Then keep the little bastards inside while the parade is going on. it’s not like the parade schedule is some big secret. If the bigots don’t want the preciousfruit of their loins seeing homosexuals, then keep them home and close the blinds.

Shame on you for daring to justify this bigotry. Shame on you.

[Steve_MB]

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Well, in this case, it’s not the Israeli state…it’s the Haredim, and more specifically, that segment of the Haredim who decide to be violent against those people or groups they consider to be immoral.
[/QUOTE]

If they can’t or won’t suppress the violent religious sect in their own country, it doesn’t do much for their standing to complain about their Muslim neighbors’ failure to suppress the violent religious sects in their countries, now does it?

[Steve_MB]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
I love that tolerance goes in only one direction - the old must give way to the new.

But somehow, it’s acceptable for a group that knows their sexuality is, and has been for thousands of years, considered abominable to a certain religion to make a point of proudly parading it in front of that religion’s most fundamentalist adherents? Is that not also intolerant?
[/QUOTE]

No.

[QUOTE=L. Spague deCamp (Lest Darkness Fall)]
“You don’t like the Goths?”
“No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!”
“Persecution?” Padway raised his eyebrows.
“Religious persecution. We won’t stand for it forever.”
“I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.”
“That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!”
[/QUOTE]

[Steve_MB]

[QUOTE=Nava]
An ex-coworker of mine wears a cross, a star of david and a crescent as “medals”.
[/QUOTE]

Why am I thinking of the scene in The Mummy where the little weasel tries various holy symbols to keep Imhotep away?

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=cmkeller]

There’s more respect for the Amish in the hyper-techno-connected United States than for Jews observing the Torah in the city declared holy by the Torah. The Haredim certainly have their prejudices, but to push those in their face is a form of intolerance just the same.
[/QUOTE]

One more thing…who’s standing in the way of the jews for observing the Torah? No one’s stopping them from doing anything. They’re the only ones being intolerant. You’re asking others to observe the Torah. Why would a non-jew want to do that?

[slaphead]

[QUOTE=Cisco]
You’re forgetting each other, infidels, other religions people; hell, most fundamentalists (of any of the big 3) seem to hate anyone that hasn’t eaten dinner at their house.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think that’s a bit of a sweeping statement. I would have thought it’s perfectly possible for them to also hate dinner guests who e.g. weren’t sufficiently complimentary of the dessert, spilt coffee on the rug, or ogled their daughter’s boobies. It’s not like they don’t have enough hate to go round, they’re always very generous that way.

[QUOTE=RickJay]
I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that there was an open display of intolerance in the Middle East.
[/QUOTE]
Hehehe…

[Sal_Ammoniac]

[QUOTE=jayjay]
How long before all of the fucking ultra-conservatives die off?
[/QUOTE]

You’ll be reassured to know that they’re the only ones having children in large numbers.

[ShelliBean]

[QUOTE=Cisco]
I’m with you here; this confuses the hell out of me. Right now in my office I know of a black guy who hates gays, a gay guy who hates Mexicans, a Mexican who hates Native Americans, and 2 Christians who hate anyone who is at all happy. Mind you, these are just the people that I know of who are brash enough to talk openly about their bigotry at work.
[/QUOTE]

Staff meetings must be fun.

[Ponder_Stibbons]

[QUOTE=Miller]
No, generally speaking, one does not “tolerate” something one agrees with. That would be “support.” “Tolerate” is how you treat things you disagree with or dislike. I support gay rights groups. I tolerate homophobic organizations like Focus on Family. That is to say, I do not try to harm them or censure them or block them from political access. I can still call the dicks, and argue that their politics are evil and bigoted, but I tolerate them.
[/QUOTE]

I must say, that is one of the most concise and clear explanations of tolerance I’ve ever seen.