Actually, tolerance can never go in only one direction. Those who don’t show it, do not receive it.
No, it’s not remotely intolerant.
Because, of course, there are no gays in Jerusalem, and certainly none in Meah Shearim.
No, generally speaking, one does not “tolerate” something one agrees with. That would be “support.” “Tolerate” is how you treat things you disagree with or dislike. I support gay rights groups. I tolerate homophobic organizations like Focus on Family. That is to say, I do not try to harm them or censure them or block them from political access. I can still call the dicks, and argue that their politics are evil and bigoted, but I tolerate them.
At which point they riot for three days straight. Yeah, these are some truly harmless, inoffensive people you got there.
Was the parade breaking a law by going through that neighborhood? Were they forbidden to be there? Were they trespassing? No? Then the people who live there need to suck it the fuck up and deal with the fact that they live in a city with people who are different than them.
And for the record, I do have respect for the Haredim, for those aspects of their lives that are respectable. The parts that aren’t respectable, I do not respect. Their homophobia is not something I respect, and they do not get a special pass from criticism on that score because they’re religious. I don’t know from sin, but I damned well know evil, and the attitudes these people have kills. There are men and women living in that community right now who are tortured daily by the conflict between how they were born and how their society views them. No one deserves to live like that. These attitudes are evil, and they need to stop. I won’t prevent them from holding or espousing them. No, I tolerate their prejudices. But I can still speak out against them. The actions of these people are shameful. A just God would weep to see his children treat each other so.
They want to raise their children with minimal tempation toward sin or heresy, until as adults they know enough about their faith to confront alternate points of view.
Quite frankly, it would. I obviously don’t agree with those folks, and I wouldn’t condone violence on their part (and I hope I was clear that I don’t condone it on the part of the Haredim), but yes, it would be intolerant. If multi-cultural tolerance means anything at all, it has to apply to cultures that you disagree with on substantial, life-altering issues as well as to those you aren’t a member of but merely find quaint.
No, they don’t do that. They also don’t serve in the army, are one of the big reasons there’s no secular marriage in Israel, take welfare because they’d rather study Torah than work, force stores to close on Sabbath, etc. And they’ve got Shas, they’ve got United Torah Judaism. So it’s not like they just want to be left alone. They want to actively get involved in politics and pursue policies that affect all Israelis. So this makes their beliefs, their attitudes, and their actions as open to disagreement and criticism as any other group that’s trying to influence society and government.
And they handle “disagreement and criticism” as well as anyone. But a Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem and especially in Meah Shearim is more than disagreement, it’s in-your-face desecration. They might as well be performing strip-teases in synagogues.
Is Meah Shearim a public street or some sort of private neighborhood? If the former, then tough. It’s a public street. If the Haredim want to go be ultra-ultra-Orthodox away from the unbelievers, they can go found their own town and wall it up. But if this is a public street, their options include secluding themselves in their houses during the parade or going to visit Aunt Tova in Bethlehem. Their options do not include rioting for three days. Under any law, secular or religious.
I can’t imagine how I could disagree with this more. Gays live there too, do they not? They have every right to celebrate in the streets and if people who don’t agree with it want to go hide in synagogues fine. Gays (probably) aren’t going to chase them out and tickle them with feather boas.
Oh, (excuse my French) Bullshit! Have you ever, actually, like lived here for a while? There are so many fucking ways that religion, and especially the Haredim, fuck with my life, that it isn’t even funny.
I go to the army and protect them so that they can send able-bodied 20-year-old sto terrorize their conceived enemy du jour.
I pay gazzilion % income tax so that they can “study Torah” (and work on the black market on the side)
I can’t marry a non-Jew. I can’t marry a Jewish girl in a civil ceremony. I can’t get state support to help bury my relatives in a non-religious cemetary (where Og forbid I might visit their grave on Saturday, when I have time).
If I don’t have a car, I can’t enjoy my weekend, because there is no public transportation.
Until about 10 years ago, I couldn’t go out to a restaurant or a movie on Friday night in many parts of the country. I couldn’t go do my shopping on Saturday when I have time (I’m busy working all week to pay those taxes so they can sponge off me. Or going to Miluim (reserve duty) in order to defend their dear little butts so they can terrorize other people they don’t agree with)
And yes, they even still have an inordinate amount of influence on public schools’ curricula – although of course they have their own schools, funded by the state, with 15 kids in each class – because if there are 30 kids in the age group, they can’t have a single class like we do – that would force boys and girls to sit together in the same class. So what if everyone elses’ children study in classes with 35 children? And where they don’t have to teach pesky subjects like World History, Civics, non-religious reading of the Bible, or for that matter proper knowledge of English and Math
…
They want live and let live? They better damn well start off by showing us seculars and atheists that, for a fucking change, they are willing to let live, and not only let others let them live.
Comparison to the Amish, my foot. Don’t insult my intelligence.
Add my aunt, a Catalan who thinks people should not be allowed to immigrate to Catalonia - I keep asking her if this includes 3 of her 4 grandparents but she refuses to answer.
My parish lends its biggest meeting room to an African pastor. It’s kind of cool, sometimes we’ll be having Mass and hear a thundering HALLELLLUUUUUUUUJA BROTHER from somewhere beyond the altar The pastor was telling one of the fathers how recently he’d been introduced to a guy who was new in town and the new guy starts congratulating him and saying he waaaay wants to be part of the Church and how much he hates having to deal with those heathen Catholics. From the pastor’s retelling, the guy’s expression when he was informed that “we meet at the Franciscan church, entrance is through the side street” must have been priceless.
An ex-coworker of mine wears a cross, a star of david and a crescent as “medals”. Says he got the star first, as a present from someone he made friends with while visiting the Holy Land, and it got him so many stares and started so many conversations from random strangers that he decided to add the other two. If he feels like having an interesting conversation and he’s in a public place and doesn’t know anybody, pretty much all he’s got to do is let the necklace show. Many of them start by people yelling at him and end with them buying him coffee, he claims.
You know, they always have the option of NOT ATTENDING THE PARADE. If they want to separate from the real world, joining it is not the way to go about it.
If those beliefs rewuire or even condone physical violence against another person, then yes, paint me as “intolerant” of those beliefs. Anyone can believe whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. Makes me no never mind if, in the privacy of their own heads, some segment of extremist Judaism thinks that gay people will burn in the firel pit of Hell forever. But, as soon as they bring those views into a dimension other than Hell, by for example committing violence against other people, then their beliefs get zero respect and zero tolerance.
Not to get all Godwin on anyone’s ass, but there were certain segments of the human population who, about 60 years ago, decided that their beliefs about Jews (and Communists, gypsies, homosexuals and others) justified killing several million of them. if there’s any segment of the current human race that should understand the concept of “live and let live” it’s the Jews.
Then keep the little bastards inside while the parade is going on. it’s not like the parade schedule is some big secret. If the bigots don’t want the preciousfruit of their loins seeing homosexuals, then keep them home and close the blinds.
Shame on you for daring to justify this bigotry. Shame on you.
If they can’t or won’t suppress the violent religious sect in their own country, it doesn’t do much for their standing to complain about their Muslim neighbors’ failure to suppress the violent religious sects in their countries, now does it?
One more thing…who’s standing in the way of the jews for observing the Torah? No one’s stopping them from doing anything. They’re the only ones being intolerant. You’re asking others to observe the Torah. Why would a non-jew want to do that?
Well, I think that’s a bit of a sweeping statement. I would have thought it’s perfectly possible for them to also hate dinner guests who e.g. weren’t sufficiently complimentary of the dessert, spilt coffee on the rug, or ogled their daughter’s boobies. It’s not like they don’t have enough hate to go round, they’re always very generous that way.
The pastor was telling one of the fathers how recently he’d been introduced to a guy who was new in town and the new guy starts congratulating him and saying he waaaay wants to be part of the Church and how much he hates having to deal with those heathen Catholics. From the pastor’s retelling, the guy’s expression when he was informed that “we meet at the Franciscan church, entrance is through the side street” must have been priceless.