Obviously. Did you think I disagreed? Kanye is a very creative and talented dude who acts like a jackass a lot.
I really want Kanye to be incredibly talented. I’m just not seeing it. Admittedly his stuff doesn’t make me turn off the music, but that’s not a high bar. And I’m certainly not hearing a ‘new kind of music’. If anything it was Beck back in the day that made me think “well this is new sounding”
The point is that Beck didn’t collaborate on the writing or production of his latest album, and performed the majority of the music and vocals himself. It is, in fact, one of the more extreme examples of someone doing that.
I really don’t know what you’re arguing about here. Do you really think Beck is lying about having written and produced the entire album? Or do you for some reason think that the string section came in and played whatever they felt like, rather than whatever Beck wrote for them?
It’s clear he’s pretty damn talented, although perhaps not quite as talented as he thinks he is. It’s quite possible that his music is, in fact, the best stuff in the pop charts at the moment. The problem is, that’s such a tiny and artistically insignificant subset of music as a whole that the claim that he’s the best becomes pretty meaningless.
In the event anyone care what I consider to be a good, recent, hip-hop influenced but genre-spanning album with multiple collaborators, listen to Tricky’s latest album.
Well obviously a fair few like it. I’m not thrilled with ballads to begin with and I downright HATE interruptions to the music I’m listening to. Never liked Frank Zappa for that reason and some people think he’s a god. I’ll be in my rocking chair listening to MC.
Before I add anything, I’d like to clarify that I have NO musical cred (I don’t even get why Prince is such a genius-he has some songs I like to listen to and I understand he can play and produce and do all those things and puts on a really good show but his music isn’t something I would seek out so I don’t get the adulation [/end hijack]) but I will stipulate that both Kanye and Beck are talented musicians.
That said, here is my problem with this whole situation:
-First of all, it doesn’t relate to the legitimacy of rap music unless Beyoncé suddenly changed from R&B to rap when I wasn’t listening.
-I get that Kanye feels that black musicians are undervalued by mainstream awards shows.
-I agree with his right to make this fact known.
-I disagree that interrupting awards shows is an appropriate venue to voice his opinion.
-I take issue with all those who wrote it off as “Kanye was just joking” when he first started to go up then sat down, but I might have given him some credit if he had admitted that he had realized he was making a mistake and then explained his reasons without trashing other artists.
-He lost any goodwill he might have had for sitting back down again when he said Beck was not an artist and suggested he give his award to Beyoncé.
-He is a douche for going back on that statement now instead of apologizing sincerely and explaining his reasons.
-He is a jerk for now insinuating that he was trying to make a joke by interrupting when his rant after the awards made it clear he wasn’t joking.
-He is narcissistic for implying that his opinion is the only one that matters; even if I agree with his opinion in some cases.
-He has demonstrated that his opinion is idiotic in at least one case, his initial rant at the video awards about Beyoncé’s video (because claiming a video which basically consists of 3 women dancing in leotards and high heels for 4 minutes is one of the greatest videos of all time is pure idiocy. Why? Because it was shot in black and white? It had no discernible story line, no interesting filming, no creative editing. I understand that Beyoncé is hot but that video is frankly nothing special-not that the Swift video that won was all that great either).
In short, Kanye may be a talented musician but he is an arrogant, narcissistic, self-entitled little idiot with poor judgment, poor impulse control and little respect for other musicians who are not his personal friends. He may be right that black musicians are relatively ignored at the Grammys, but he is doing his cause no service and I would be fascinated to see what his reaction would be if somebody said that he should give up one of his Grammys to another artist because somebody felt that the other artist was more deserving.
Kanye has a history of this. He interrupted another award show for best music video claiming the show lost credibility if he doesn’t win, and then want on to say to the winners, “My video cost a million dollars! It’s nothing against you, I didn’t see your video…” I think it was the EMA show.
Not so. I explicitly stated that there is indeed a learning curve, and I’ve experienced it. It’s still nothing compared to music theory and everything else that goes into making real music. Speaking of awards shows, at the 1991 BRIT Awards, when Pete Townshend presented the award for “Best British Group” to The Cure, he remarked on how pleased he was to not present the award to a drum machine. I love numerous electronic-heavy musicians, but they all are known for making things as “live” as possible. I am a big fan of Zack De La Rocha, who, though in many ways a rapper, also plays multiple instruments (and works with people who adroitly play many more) and can sing somewhat. I’ve already mentioned some variant of the above regarding Beck and company. I could say the same about Faith No More.
That’s always so baffling to me, but that’s a discussion for another time.
It’s a different art form, and it’s one thing when sampling is used for textures and effects (Linkin Park, Deftones, Faith No More’s 1992 album Angel Dust) a la musique concret, but it’s quite another when one simply steals another person’s hard-earned musical creation, and of course too many listeners don’t know and don’t care, just like they don’t know and don’t care when someone doesn’t really write their own songs, and is just another product…
Look, my real angle on this isn’t that I care who wins at these awards shows, because any of them in the Oscar mold are just gimmicks and scams, and the Grammys in particular are perhaps hopelessly square. Also, the right way to deal with jerks like West are to ignore them. No, the point that’s being lost here is that West has the audacity to act like a jackass when by some miracle such awards go to someone far more musically accomplished, and then two things happen.
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Legions of jackasses out there in the world share West’s umbrage, proudly proclaiming that they don’t even know who (in this case) Beck even is. This is the same phenomenon that erupted after U2 (in yet another tacky move from them) put their new release onto most/all Itunes accounts, and offended users had to angrily ask who U2 was, rather than spend a few minutes finding out. It was the same thing that seemed to happen regarding Paul McCartney recently. It seems like a huge swath of the public are completely divorced from original, humanly played and sung genuine music (I don’t think they were jazz/classical devotees frustrated at interacting with those of lower-brow). I’m not even a particularly big fan of McCartney, U2, or Beck! It’s the principle of the thing!
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West has the ignorant audacity to defend his actions by citing a need to “respect artistry.” There’s more artistry in the extremely-demanding and not-very-lucrative worlds of art music than he can even comprehend. Even in a less-rarefied context, Richard Thompson has spent decades giving great performances (live and on record), sometimes with only his guitar, voice, and witty (to put it mildly) lyrics. Many people would probably say the same about Tori Amos. I would add Patty Griffin. Is their artistry, especially Thompson’s, adequately respected and appreciated? Can West’s work stand up stripped down to nothing but its musical essence?
I’m glad that one rapper called attention to the disparity between Beck’s production methods and West’s (and Beyonce’s, but I agree that she’s not to blame in any of this). I’m glad that Shirley Manson called attention to West’s telling insecurity. I’m glad that there are still some of us out here who appreciate raw, analog, organic, genuine, human music.
Like I keep hinting, I wonder if any music (or any art) can reach the heights of popularity and still be good. That’s another discussion for another time.
This is a profoundly clueless thing to say. It’s so off base, as they say, it’s not even wrong.
West’s public behavior is a studied persona, and it’s one that is very successful. I think you’ll find that Beck wasn’t offended and he benefits just as much from the publicity as West does.
Your determination that West is a “jackass” shows that you’re just buying the hype. The whole point is to get people like you riled up and excited and in turn rile up and excite your mirror image.
That outrage had nothing to do with people not knowing who U2 was. It had to do with a company presuming to mess around with the data on people’s devices without permission.
So, again you were fooled by people intentionally behaving silly in public.
Another profoundly clueless thing to say. Ninety percent of all musical work or art that you can think of that you like—the only reason you know that it exists is because it “reach[ed] the heights of popularity” at some point in human history.
On this point I think you may be quite a bit hasty. Beyonce’s “Single Ladies” video has become absolutely iconic. The dance is very well known. People still the whole left hand shake when telling their friends ‘if he likes it, then he should put a ring on it’.
It may be one of the most famous music videos of all time.
Good Gawd Single Ladies? The dance moves were stolen from Bob Fosse, so just as ‘Jezzy’ “samples” iconic music and then shoots off his nonsense, Beyonce pretends to let people think all her choreography is her own when it’s nothing more than a tacky combination of stripper moves and iconic legendary choreography. nothing to see here but tired retreads
The “Single Ladies” dance may have become iconic but that does not mean the video is anything special. Does this mean the Macarena should have won best video? A lot of people did that dance too!
When it comes to Beyonce and West and artistry they are hacks, heavily borrowing from real originals before them. the Fetuses who lap up their crap think it is all their own originality when they have no idea of the artists who actually took risks and are the real deal. Cool article about Beyonce in Billboard, being careful not to acuse her of plagiarism a case could definitely be made .
Interesting in the 2009 MTV Music Awards, when Taylor Swift won best Female Video, when West jumped up on stage, the Video of the Year award, at the end of the night was won by Beyonce for Single Ladies (which is somewhat interesting when you think of it). The iconic nature of the dance within the video is one aspect of why the video got so much praise. The simple nature of it was another reason. Anyway, it got plenty of acclaim and continues to do so (at least among music videos, which even with Youtube is dying).
Sorry-I disagree that the Single Ladies video is anything special. It’s 4 minutes of dancing copied from Fosse. I don’t see how pointing to a finger makes it somehow special, not that anybody I know would ever say anything like “if he likes it then he should put a ring on it”. (Not to hijack the thread but what a patronizing, offensive, demeaning sentiment. I can’t see how any woman with an ounce of self-esteem would refer to herself in such a way). Again, I admit that the song is catchy and I enjoy the choreography in the same way that I enjoy most Fosse choreography. It may even have been the best video of that year (I doubt I saw all of the videos that year). But “one of the best videos of all time”??? Really??? That’s the best anybody has ever done? You may feel that way and Kanye may feel that way but I doubt that the majority of the viewing public would agree with you.
I’ve got nothing but admiration for Beyonce, even though I don’t listen to her much. People like her, just bristling with drive and ambition, but also hard-working and just relentless…I don’t know, how can you not admire that? She isn’t the best in the world at anything, but she’s got talent and has definitely maxed it out. Plus, she’s cute. I don’t get the hate.
Are people really getting bent out of shape over Beyonce’s choreographers “stealing” from Bob Fosse? Everyone steals from Fosse. And Fosse, who did not exist in a vacuum, “stole” from Fred Astaire and Jack Cole.
I wonder if Kanye West is a Grammy voter. He’s certainly eligible. If an older, whiter demographic is dominating the decision making, part of the problem might be that they’re more likely to be bothered with the whole silly thing.
Missed the edit. Meant to add that the Fosse elements in "Single Ladies’ are so obviously homage that it’s hard to understand the “stealing” claims. It’s not like the choreographers didn’t know that people would recognize it. Did they go too far? I don’t know enough to say, but dance routines can by copyrighted. I haven’t heard any rumblings about a lawsuit.
I think most people realize that it’s poor impulse control, not a fronting a fake persona, that made West jump up on stage. The justification that “you’re just not down with it, you don’t get it” is weak sauce.
Even if West being rude WAS a fake persona (doubtful), it was still rude and lacking in basic courtesy.
By who? And by “who” I mean who is still giving it “plenty of acclaim”.
Anyways Kanye admitted he is a crazy.
And here is where he admits that what he said after the grammys about Beck is what he really thinks and feels and that he is lying about it being a “joke”.
Kanye storms beach at Normandy.
“Yo, America, I’m really happy for you, I’ma let you finish, but the Soviets just launched one of the best operations of all time. Of all time!”