Keeping Your Kid Off the Couch

In My Humble Opinion
1

It may not be possible to raise a child who later needs therapy, but I hope it’s possible to avoid raising your child such that they need a LOT of therapy.

Nobody can truly tell you how to raise your kid. It’s just too individual.

But I figure that if you take a backwards look at what NOT to do, based on adults’ complaints about their parents, you can get a sense of common pitfalls.

For example, although I would like for my children to eat their vegetables, I never point to another child at a gathering who is doing so and admonish them to “be like little Susie over there.” Because I think that undermines any later arguments that they should ignore peer pressure concerning drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.

Another example, yesterday I canceled the babysitting I’d arranged (so that I could go paint for fun) because my kids were afraid of the babysitter’s children. Now, I know those other kids didn’t represent any real threat. Her kids are older and they were roughhousing with mine last week, and my kids didn’t like it. REALLY didn’t like it. I couldn’t convince them that there was no real threat. So I decided it was important to take them seriously and respect their feelings. Because how can I tell them later, when the stakes are higher, “You can tell me anything” if I don’t react when they DO tell me something.

Dinsdale remarked, in the context of potty training, here “Absent psychological issues with the kid, there’s simply no power struggle. The parents have the power. End of story.” Now, it’s his kid, his family, his right to choose; I couldn’t pick them out of a lineup, I don’t know how they should be parented.

But I thought this was an interesting example of a parental policy that adults often complain about, bitterly. Maybe Dinsdale is right concerning the potty - or maybe he’s setting an authoritarian tone that he’ll later regret?

Just wondering what other parents think – am I crazy to imagine that I’m setting us up for good experiences later with the choices I’m making now?

Anyone else following a similar strategy?

2

/hijack

I jumped into here reading this as keeping kids off the couch - as in keeping dogs, cats, etc off the couch. I thought, “damn, now THAT’s being selective.”

3

I was expecting “How do I get my kids to quit being such couch potatoes?”

4

Or maybe they have a farm and the baby goats are allowed to roam the house?

5

I was expecting something like, “How do I keep my kids from climbing all over my new $2000 Italian leather sofa?”

6

I was trying to riff on Chris Rock’s line about keeping his daughter “off the pole.”

Failed miserably, obviously. :smiley:

7

I don’t know shit-all about you, but the fact that you even think this probably indicates that your kid is going to wind up in therapy.

My mindset tends to be, “what kind of completely fucked up shit do you have to do to a kid that makes him wind up in therapy.”

Do you know that there are large segments of society that consider “therapy” a load of fucking useless hogwash? That it’s not ever an option because it’s bullshit? That if you’re in therapy, it’s already too late?

I’m not, nor will I ever be, in therapy.

None of my immediate family ever was, currently is, or ever will be. I guarantee you.

My wife is not, never has been, and never will be.

None of my friends are.

But, the people I know who do therapy (like my stupid crazy neighbor who became an alcoholic because his dog died :rolleyes: )-- their family does therapy, their friends do therapy. If “therapy” is something you consider a natural thing to do, your kids will wind up in therapy. It’s what they know. You didn’t teach them to scoff at it.

8

Serious reply :slight_smile:

Our parenting strategy is two-fold:

  1. Parents have the authority.

  2. We listen and hear our kids, even if we can’t give them what they want.

When my 13 year old was very little we learned that sometimes we didn’t understand how important some things were to him. So we learned taht we could say to him “I didn’t realize how important this was, let mommy and daddy talk about it”. Soemtimes we changed our mind, most often we didn’t. We kept the authority- it wasn’t “giving in” if we changed our mind. They didn’t grow up to be cajolers and whiners- they knew we could talk about things if they felt strongly about stuff.

Our definition of spoiling a kid was was doing something or buying something just to avoid a fight/scene. We never did that.

But the kids were heard and knew that we really did listen, we just couldn’t or wouldn’t do it theirway always.

Our kids are extremely reasonable and have pretty good confidence that we really do care about how they feel.

So that’s what worked for us- we are strong authoritarians who are willing to believe our kids have deep, sincere feelings that deserve to be respected and heard and sometimes compromised with.

9

For a second there I was like WTF?

Then I realized I made a key mistake in my phrasing.

What I meant to say is:

It may not be possible to AVOID raising a child who later needs therapy, but I hope it’s possible to avoid raising your child such that they need a LOT of therapy.

FTR, I don’t think of therapy as a bad thing, not at all. I wouldn’t want them to “scoff” at it, that’s not my goal.

I’m just trying to say, I’d like to succeed as a parent such that my kids can function without needing additional help.

But you never know what might come up.

10

I also opened the thread thinking you were having issues keeping kids off your sofa. That said, I seriously doubt there’s a once size fits all solution for keeping kids out of therapy. I mean, the basics of child-rearing are love, food, water, discipline, right? But you can’t prevent kids from having chemical imbalances that may warrant therapy. And you won’t raise them in a vacuum, so they’re going to have some horrible experiences no matter how you shelter them. Some kids will have experiences so bad that no amount of good, proactive parenting will provide them with the tools they need to deal with them. Others may just have a certain temprament or predisposition to having issues that require therapy.

The best you can do now is set reasonable, firm limits that your kid can follow and make sure they know you love them unconditionally while making sure the kid knows that there aren’t exceptions to your rules.

With respect to the poop issue - I think that depends on the kid, both age and to some extent temprament. We have a two year old - I don’t expect him to go in the potty all the time, but he is starting to do so at night before bed, which I think is great. But if he didn’t want to, that’s no big deal. But I imagine that after a certain age, kids lose a lot of leeway in that department. I don’t think it’s “fucked up” or requires any sort of therapy, but I do think that a four year old refusing to go in the potty would require the parents to revisit their approach.

11

I sincerely hope that if one of your friends or children ends up needing therapy for whatever psychological problems they may have or develop that you change your tune enough to be supportive of them.

I thought therapy was crap too until I was clinically depressed, lashing out, and needed it. Haven’t needed it since those six months a decade ago, but I have a new perspective now.

12

I think Dinsdale’s one of the most capable and best parents we have on this board. I also think his methods are the best hits of yesteryear - that is, his tone (at least on the board, I’ve never been to his house or even met him in person) is one of the Authoritarian Parent we all love from Leave it to Beaver reruns. The Authoritarian Parent, that is, who does it right: whose authority comes from love, not dominance. Who, when he says, “this hurts me more than it hurts you,” is being honest and heartfelt.

I’m not completely opposed to corporal punishment. I think it’s a great tool - one of many - and that, like all tools, it’s subject to both judicious use and abuse, and one that’s sometimes not used when it should be and used when it shouldn’t be. From everything I’ve read, **Dinsdale **falls well to the “judicious use” end of the spectrum.

I use “negative” techniques sometimes. When my daughter picks her nose, you can bet I use shock and shaming language - because simply saying “don’t” didn’t work. “Ewww! That’s so gross! Oh, man, only *babies *pick their noses, I thought you were a big girl!” makes a much bigger impression and is actually a more effective way to illustrate WHY we don’t pick our noses ('cause other people think it’s gross!)

That being said, I don’t think I would ever (famous last words in parenting, I know) use physical discipline or shame in this *particular *area of parenting. While much of Freud’s work has been called into question, I do believe that elimination and sexual psychology are intimately connected, and I’m don’t think it’s a good idea to introduce authority and/or pain and/or shame into those areas.

Does this mean later potty training than in yesteryear? Yep, sure does. Along with the use of Pull-ups, being your kid’s partner instead of Authority in this means that they’re likely to delay training. But you know what else is declining? Rape, teenage pregnancy*, shame around sexuality, institutional patriarchy and the sexual double standard. Are these directly correlated? I have no friggin’ idea. But I think, generally, that the attitudes we have around sexuality in the last 30 years are healthier than the ideas we had around sexuality when our kids were “toilet trained” at 16 months. I’m not willing to risk my daughter thinking of her genitals as “bad and dirty” because I yell at her for her icky yucky poopy diaper as I’m angrily wiping her vulva clean, or because I spank her immediately after nerve endings in the area have been stimulated by a bowel movement.

Maybe I’m overthinking it. I don’t know. But I’ve just made the choice not to do it. Do I think **Dinsdale **broke his kid? No way. Not only are kids resilient, but his other stories have revealed pretty darn good kids. So while I wouldn’t choose it myself, I’m also not ready to tar and feather him for making a different choice. I trust that he knows his kids and what works with them far better than I do.
All THAT being said, however, I’m a bit baffled by his quip, “Absent psychological issues with the kid, there’s simply no power struggle. The parents have the power. End of story.” I mean - really? Parents have the power to move a child’s bowels on demand? I’m amazed. I don’t even have the power to move MY bowels on demand! :stuck_out_tongue:

*I’m still hoping last year’s increase was a statistical blip.

13

What I’m saying is that it’s not a NEED. It’s a WANT. Unless you’re friggin’ molesting the kid, he’s not going to NEED therapy.

The problem is that you’re talking about how to keep him off the couch. . .well, don’t teach him that the couch is an option. If you’re raising the kid to think, “oh, I’m feeling a little blue. The solution is to get therapy”, then your kid is going to wind up in therapy.

It’s not the result of you not loving him enough, or loving him too much, or whatever. It’s whether you’re teaching him that therapy is a way you deal with issues that you and I and almost everyone else has. The question is whether you use therapy to deal with it.

14

Another one who thought, “Damn, I thought I was a strict parent, and I keep my dogs off the furniture, but I let the kids on the couch!”

This pretty much sums up our approach.

One thing that was tough for me to learn (but I did eventually) was that I had an initial tendency to say “No” if I was asked for something that I had not anticipated or that was inconsistent with my inclination. Much healthier for all to consider each request/opinion on its own merits.

Another silly thing was, when I heard somethng going on in a different part of the house that didn’t sound right, it was far preferable for me to get off my ass and go see what was going on, instead of just shouting for them to “Cut that out!”

Stuff like this sounds incredibly simple in hindsight, but it was not natural to me as a new parent.

And if we proposed something and my kids wanted something different, my wife and I (both lawyers) would require that they present a reason why their choice should prevail. Simply made it a basic fact from a very early age that “I want” was not going to result in a kid getting their way on just about any issue - large or small. And depending on the issue and the argument made, we would either defer to the kid’s request or explain why we were going with our original intention.

I also recall at an early age making it clear to the kids how little we “HAD” to give them. If they were loving pleasant contributing members of the family, there was little end to the emotional and material things we would gladly give them. But they had a choice, whether or not they wished to contribute positively to the family dynamic. And to the extent they chose not to, they would quickly learn how many “luxuries” they would find themselves doing without.

15

Oh you are SO clueless. I don’t have the time nor the energy for this battle right now.

You know what, WhyNot, I confused Dinsdale with Belrix. I still wouldn’t feel comfortable with that kind of authoritarian relationship myself (I don’t see things in black and white contrast, so I can’t enforce one), BUT it rather alters my read of his post.

I really didn’t mean this to be a pitting-lite of him, just a question about parenting philosophies and potential outcomes.

For example, my husband’s mom was absolutely “my way or the highway.” She even said it that way. Her sons despise her, and that’s 80% of it. One moved all the way to Alaska; the other is struggling to parent.

Not exactly a promising example, but not an exhaustive look at that technique, either.

16

Sure I am.

Like a power struggle – or lack thereof – over potty training is a contributing factor to whether kids end up in therapy.

That’s much more of a factor compared to whether the kid sees mom going to the therapist once a month for 3 years straight.

I’m the clueless one.

17

Oh, hey, THIS is what you meant, right? I feel so enlightened now! :smiley:

Except I have to run off and deliver my husband to work because it’s horribly and smoky outside so he can’t bike and his car died 2 months ago. So I’ll come back later, except really I ought to spend a lot of today paying attention to the house, which I have not done in some time.

18

Wrong. Simply – wrong.

People can often truly NEED therapy to cope with things beyond their control, regardless of what their parents did or did not do.

Just two examples:

Biologically based chemical brain disorders, like bipolor and depression. Meds may help. Therapy can also help the person learn to deal with the problem. Depression is not “feeling a little blue.”

A horribly traumatic event. Having a professional to talk with can be a major factor in learning to deal with the feelings one has afterward.

A not insignificant number of people with the idea that therapy is for sissies, just “suck it up” and deal with it by yourself end up with worse problems, such as alcohol or other substance abuse.

19

I don’t have kids, but I did teach for five years. The healthiest kids I saw were the ones raised in a consistent, loving environment. It did not matter if they had the newest coolest. It did not matter if they were gifted, average, or delayed. It did not matter if they were popular or off to another drumbeat. What mattered was that they could clearly predict their parents’ reactions to their behavior and the consequences that would come with it.

And, to the list of love, consistency, and discipline, I’ll add “safety”. I’ve known too many kids who had loving parents, but they did not keep their kids safe, especially if it was from a friend, relative, or other intimate turned predator. If you don’t have the guts to keep the bad guys away from your kid, the kid is going to figure it out and think it’s about how much you value them.

Trunk, I think you have an incomplete idea about what comprises therapy, specifically “talk” therapy. Are there people who lie on a couch and whine endlessly about how nothing is there fault? Sure. Are there therapists who do nothing for their patients but confirm their helplessness? Absolutely. There are even therapists who manipulate, use, and abuse their patients. Thankfully, those are rather rare.

However, a good therapist using cognitive behavioral therapy helps their patient come to terms with past trauma, understand just how much control they have over their own behavior, discontinue negative behavior, and create new patterns of positive behavior. A good therapist stresses personal responsibility and holds their patient accountable.

If I had the money, I’d be in therapy right now. Not because someone paddled my behind when I was a kid. Not because my parents were less than perfect. I would go because I have a history of clinical depression, and the last one had suicidal ideation. I would go because I have Attention Deficit Disorder, and having an objective, supportive review of my life decisions and habits helps me fix the problems in my life. I would go because I have a pattern of decision making that is often destructive, and I cannot figure it out all on my own. A trained, licenced profession can - and has - helped me make my life better.

20

There’s a long story that I don’t feel like going into, but I had to fight my parents to get psychological help. My parents are the old-school only go to the doctor if you’re having symptoms of a heart attack kind of people who have never done anything resembling therapy. I remember my mom being ashamed that I needed help. But if I hadn’t gotten it, I wouldn’t be here.