True enough, but the discussion is about liver damage caused by overdose of acetaminophen. The only difference between Tylenol PM and Tylenol Jr., dosage aside, is the diphenydramine, which is not associated with hepatotoxicity, AFAIK.
I do agree with Dangerosa that there is some risk here (there is with any medication, intended for children or not,) but it’s minimal and Belrix does not deserve all the shit that’s been heaped upon him for it.
I’m aware of this, but apparently it works for his daughter. I rather doubt they’d have kept giving it to her if it made her anxious and excitable which seems to be, y’know, the opposite of what they want to happen.
Okay, well I was just answering “Why wouldn’t the doctor suggest OTC Benadryl as as a safer alternative?”
What do you think is in Tylenol Jr OR Tylenol PM? They both contain um, Tylenol–it’s the DOSAGE of the drug that matters. There is no difference except for strength in adult acetaminophen or child acetaminophen.
250mg is not an overdose of this drug for a 12 year old, depending on the weight of the child. I’m not advocating taking TyPM every night for a year–I look askance at that for several reasons, but the primary one is NOT the dose of the drug. Benadryl is metabolized by the liver, but again, that is not an issue, unless overdosing has occurred. It’s the Tylenol that is of concern re the liver.
Benadryl should not be given to pts who have SEVERE liver disease, because it is metabolized in that organ. Sally does not have SEVERE liver disease. It, in itself, does not cause hepatotoxicity.
So you agree that the child shouldn’t be receiving either dosage every day for a year. I believe everyone has agreed to that. That’s not really up for debate.
The point that I was making (in the quote you responded to) was that the product he was reading about was not the same as the one the child was given. Why you’re coming in acting as if we are not agreeing, I can’t understand.
Yes, I’m quite aware they both contain Tylenol. Did you really think I didn’t know that, or is there another reason you pointed that out? As I said (more than once) in the other thread, Tylenol PM is a waste if all you want is a sleep aid. Skip it and buy the Benadryl.
What exactly are we not agreeing on?
Yeah, but if the excitability were a factor, the doctor wouldn’t be suggesting anything with diphenhydramine in it as a sleep aid.
However, in children, there isn’t a lot you can (should) do. I’ve had insomnia twice in my life for which I’ve been prescribed sleep meds as an adult - and both times the prescribing doctor has lectured me on the “bad mojo” of sleep meds. If the easily metabolized diphenhydramine doesn’t do it for a kid , your down to maybe hot milk, guided imagery, and for a sufficiently alternative medicine aware MD, maybe valerian.
And that’s what made you an dick in the thread. Just like you would be an asshole in any conversation that went like this:
Did you talk to your doctor about this?
I did. He says she’s fine.
I think you’re lying.
You keep coming back to that being your honest opinion, as if that somehow makes you less of a dick for saying it: “I said it and I meant it!” Gold star. But not every thought that floats through your head has to be articulated. Sometimes it’s better to just keep your yap shut. Such is the case with calling someone a liar when you can’t possibly prove it, because it’s derails the conversation, pisses people off, and is ultimately pointless. You yourself admit he cannot prove he is NOT lying, so riddle me this: What was the point of calling him a liar? Other than being a bitch, I mean?
You don’t like my general tone? :rolleyes: Fucking suck it up.
Good Christ. Give it the fuck up. This officious but-what-about-the-children routine wore thin when you started this whole thing in the other thread, when the truth of the matter is you have no idea whatsoever what his doctor said. None. When come back from medical school, bring pie.
Yes, I can see where Jodi’s attitude would be annoying to you, since she knows what she’s talking about and seldom hesitates to point out idiocy when spewed from idiots.
Idiots really resent this.
Where to start? First of all, you say that Sally should not get TylenolPM because it says on the bottle that it should not be used in kids under 12–and you’re right: it does say just that. BUT Sally is not getting the full dose of TyPM. She is getting half the adult dose–which is a safe dose for her. I don’t like her getting ANYTHING to help her sleep for an entire year. She’s 8. She (AFAWK) has no ADD or sleep disorders–she should be able to sleep without the assistance of drugs. Sure, there may be no reason for her to be getting the Tylenol–why that was ok’ed is a matter to take up with her doctor. I am not one for unnecessary drugs, myself, and people tend to think that OTC stuff is innocuous–it’s not.
One of the reasons it says on the bottle to not take for more than 2 weeks is because if you find you need TyPM for that length of time, you need to be checked out by an MD because your symptoms have not been relieved by the drug–the makers don’t want you to be taking the drug long-term, without a doctor’s knowledge or approval. But Sally has been seen by the doc and he has green lighted the med.
If this were my kid, I wouldn’t be giving her this–not because I fear liver damage (although Dangerosa has a very good point), but because no “normal” 8 year old should need a sleep aide. But-- this is what is happening. If we keep to reality, and not what you think should be happening, we have to accept that Sally is getting an appropriate dose of a med that may not be the best choice for her. This hardly a reason to castigate the dad. It’s a matter of concern, sure–but not the heaping pile he got.
To get Sally off this med, he has to get Ex on the same page as him, Sally needs to know why her routine is changing (again) and the doc will most likely need to weigh in to get both Mom and Sally compliant. This is not done overnight. Even though Benadryl is not habit forming, given Sally’s anxieties, I’m sure she has a psychological dependence of some kind.
If this were a stable home, I’d say go cold turkey and put up with some acting out on Sally’s part and a few sleepless nights–this is not a stable home at present. I think Belrix will get there, eventually. He cannot just take this away from her, while she is still so fragile–to do so would erode her trust in him and also ruin any chance of sleep for that household. He needs to go slowly, but steadily, toward his goal.
Second, your comments re TyJr and TyPM were such that I thought you were differentiating between the two as if it were the Tylenol that mattered. It does not–neither the child or the adult dose does bupkus for sleeplessness. The strength of it does matter in terms of potential liver problems, but again, Sally is receiving an appropriate dose. She is also receiving an appropriate dose of Benadryl, so there’s no issue there. Should she be on this med? I don’t think it’s necessary, BUT IANAD and it’s up to the MD who has examined the child to make the final determination.
Someone (possibly not you) commented in the other thread about Mom “forgetting” that she gave Sally the half tab and giving the second half, or giving her the rest of the dose if Sally doesn’t go down easily. We have no way of knowing if that is occurring. Also, IF Ex is doing so, then Belrix is correct in his characterizing of her, and some of this heat should not be given to him. But we have entered into the hypothetical now, so I’ll let that go.
My issue with you is this: I don’t like your tone in that other thread. I thought you harped too long and too harshly on a tangential point–I found myself wondering if this had a personal element for you. There’s a forest of problems there, and you saw one tree.
For someone who is so concerned about Sally, you came across as very contemptuous of the only person we have contact with who can help her. How does it profit you to call him a liar? Even if you think that’s true–what purpose does it serve to say so? Do you think he’ll say, “it’s a fair cop and kudos to you for picking up on it!”? To help the child, we need to help the dad–that’s all we can do. Well, you can pray if you feel it helps. Me, I’d rather do some practical good. YMMV.
Sometimes, I long to post to one of the parenting threads just so I can get pitted too. I mean, seriously. Nothing good ever comes out of them.
Well, except this:
It seems unrealistic to me that you could strongly imply someone is lying about his child’s health (pretty provocative) and/or that his doctor is immorally incompetent, and when he responds (who could resist?), flat-out accuse him of lying, and then say you’re justified in being really nasty because he quite naturally responded you. I think you escalated the hostility, with Belrix and Jodi.
I wouldn’t have Pitted you for it because I’m actually pretty ambivalent about the whole thread, but that’s how I perceived it. Take it for what it’s worth, which may be nothing from your perspective.
Best post in thread, just for this phrase.
Awesome.
That was me. Belrix doesn’t seem to trust his ex (to say the least) and we have her word and the memory of an eight year old with sleep issues (I have an eight year old with sleep issues, I have familiarity with this) on the dosage.
As the mom of an eight year old with sleep issues, I’ve looked at those little pink tablets of benedryl at midnight and wondered “one isn’t working tonight - maybe if I give her a second one…” And I’m - as I said - pretty much a medication minimalist. Sleep is a powerful motivator for doing stupid shit.
Sleeps, you know eleanorigby’s a nurse, right? With, like, 20some years in practice? Don’t you think, maybe, she’s got a little more experience with this than you do? And what she says basically backs up what **Belrix **reports his pediatrician says, and what Tylenol’s website says. Can you point me towards *any *source that says the dose taken (not the dose on the box, remember), even every day for a year, is an indication for liver testing? Because the medical professionals who know even a little bit about it seem to think it’s not.
By the way, those of you using valerian in kids might want to add lemon balm to the regimen as a daily tonic. It’s tasty, has no known contraindications or dangerous dose, and it’s great at chilling out anxious or hyperactive children without sedating them. It’ll also grow in your yard like a weed, and it’s a perennial, so it’s practically free after the first year.
ETA: The reason the doctor didn’t nix the benadryl as a sleep aid is 'cause he didn’t know about it. He gave her a prescription sleep aid, and when it ran out, Mom switched to a cheaper OTC (the Tylenol PM) without, it seems, checking with the doc. Truly monumentally stupid, but not, in this case, likely to be life threatening.
Actually, that’s not the case here. He says right in his OP that the doctor prescribed sleeping pills, but the ex decided to switch the child from the prescription meds to the Tylenol PM without the doctor’s knowledge or consent. Against label instructions and warnings. For an extremely extended period of time. That’s why so many of us were adamant that he needed to call the doctor and inform him.
But he hasn’t examined her since learning she’s been taking Tylenol PM every night for an entire year.
But, if I remember correctly (I’m not about to read that thread again), the doc was told about the switch and said it’ll do. IF the doc didn’t give the green light, doc needs to be informed. Most likely, s/he’ll want more info and (probably) will suggest stopping it–most likely for the reasons I cited, NOT because the doses are harmful (although they could be).
ETA: Shayna–we must have posted at the same time. I thought OP had informed the doctor that about the dose and the length of time and s/he said it was ok. (?) I still say it’s a concern, but not THE concern. But, IANAD.
I’d be wary of lemon balm–I know nothing of its medicinal properties, but after the first year, it invades your garden worse than mint. I now rip lemon balm out by the fistful (I can’t bring myself to spray it dead–it’s nice in salads and smells so good).
Me, I’d invest in a whole mess of time with this kid–make bedtime a special time: a special book only shared then, time for talks about fantastical “what-ifs”, back rubs, whatever. I’d also not shut those boys out of the specialness. These kids need attention and love and it sounds to me like the grown up are too busy with their own pain to deal. 
I am not blaming the adults, but damn.
Dangerosa–I understand the temptation, believe me. It just seemed to me that the general consensus was white-washing the Ex while demonizing the dad, so I was just pointing out that this newly reformed choir girl cannot be pulling shit like that and keep her halo.
Having suffered through two acting out “adults” who were separated for 5 years before finally divorcing(and then my parents got remarried to one another–7 years after that!), nothing he can say is over the top. And I’m sure the Ex has stories about him that could curl our hair. Hate is so destructive and non-productive for all involved, but when the pain is that bad, the intensity is that strong.
Nope.
And for all the calls for him to inform her doctor and get her examined, he never once claimed the doctor had known about it all along and it was given with his permission. That’s why he actually did call the doctor, to inform him, as advised.
The doctor apparently doesn’t think there’s cause for concern, in spite of the fact that chronic use of even small doses of acetaminophen can cause liver damage. I’d classify 365 days in a row “chronic use,” but what do I know, I’m not a doctor, either. I just know if it were my kid, I would never in a million years have her taking adult medication (even at supposed children’s doses), against label warnings, without my doctor’s permission, even for a day, let alone for such an extended period.
Obviously Belrix’s mileage varies greatly.
(Rest of post snipped for brevity, but I agree with it just as much)
applauds loudly
Kinda figures that this would be the post everyone decides to ignore, doesn’t it? I’ll be honest - I read some of that thread, but if I tried to read all of it, I’d probably end up with a headache that even Tylenol PM couldn’t touch!
That shit was nastier that practically any Pit thread I can name. And I loved, loved how nobody even skipped a beat when Belrix reported that what the doctor said contradicted their patronizing admonishments.
Every repsonse after that was something along the lines of, “the doctor is incompetent,” “Belrix is lying,” or, my personal favorite, “I have no medical training at all, but I do have access to Google and WebMD, so basically what I’m saying here is that I know better than your doctor.”
What a miserable fucking mess…
I once had a doctor who prescribed erythromycin over the phone when I called for an appointment, complaining of flu-like symptoms, such as diarrhea and vomiting. He was too damn busy to bother to see me, but perfectly willing to diagnose me over the phone. Lousy prick put me in the emergency room in the middle of the night with severe dehydration from excessive vomiting and nausea, exacerbated by the erythromycin.
ANY doctor who is wiling to diagnose by telephone IS incompetent, IMO. I will never tolerate that from another doctor as long as I live. And any parent who is willing to take that risk with his child deserves a tongue lashing at the very least.