Saying medication x in dosage y isn’t a danger in the vast majority of patients is not a diagnosis, AFAIK.
Also, it’s neither here nor there, but I did want to note that this post:
…proves that SwB is either being intentionally antagonistic for the hell of it, or that she’s a total fucking moron. Possibly both.
I’m not going to disagree with you there.
See, this is why I stay outta IMHO. It’s scarey.
Missed this post, and the edit window. . .
I disagree. Saying the odds of medication x in dosage y, taken over z period of time, causing damage, are minimal, isn’t a diagnosis. Saying there’s nothing wrong and she doesn’t need to come in for an office visit and possible tests is a diagnosis.
I’m guessing his reasoning was that the odds were minimal enough that if he tested everyone for every longshot possible-but-almost-definitely-not problem like this, he’d do nothing but test people all day, every day. At some point, the notion of acceptable risk has to come into play, doesn’t it?
Sure – for an adult who was making a decision for their own health. But we’re talking about an 8 year old child here. She doesn’t get to decide to seek a second opinion or elect not to be examined, or even elect not to take the risk in the first place. When it comes to children who depend on us to protect them, any risk is too much risk when it comes to possible organ damage, without being under a doctor’s care.
I was prescribed 800mg ibuprofen 3x/day for pain and inflammation from a rotator cuff injury. When I ran out of the scrip, my doctor told me to just take 4 Advil 3x/day. The bottle says not to exceed 6 caplets in a 24 hour period and not to take for longer than 10 days unless directed by a doctor. Prolonged use can cause liver failure, and overdosing can cause seizures.
My doctor was not concerned that I was at any risk for that, but I was also directly under his care, going back for follow-up visits, and I knew enough to call him immediately if I felt any symptoms that caused me concern. But I’m fairly confident that if I phoned my doctor and said, “I’ve been taking 2400mg of ibuprofen daily for a year, should I be worried about liver damage?”, he would probably say, “It’s not likely, but let’s get you in here and draw some blood just to be sure.”
So understand that I’m not suggesting that every instance of taking higher doses than labels recommend is always necessarily a bad thing. But not if you’re self-medicating without consulting a doctor, and certainly not if you’re a child who is not under a doctor’s care, and for an extended period of time. And personally, I think it’s irresponsible for the doctor not to even have her come in for an office visit, even if he elects not to draw blood once he sees her for himself.
Gosh - should I stick my 2-cents in? The conversation is about me but not really to me…
OK. Facts:
Sally was prescribed Clonodine in small doses many years ago for what was then diagnosed as mild ADHD-related sleeplessness. I don’t think it was ADHD, I think it was a stress reaction to her parents’ marital problems.
I was not thrilled with this because, in general, I don’t like medications. I supported it anyway because Sally seemed to benefit.
When the 'scrip ran out, her Mom switched her to half doses of Tylenol PM and (in the interest of full disclosure) store-brand equivalents. Why she didn’t go back to the doctor is speculation so I won’t include it in this list. Sufficient to say, the doctor did not approve the switch to the PM med.
I believe that the added stress of the separation & divorce affected Sally most obviously when she slept. Sally seemed restless at night, prone to night terrors, crying out, had obvious disturbing dreams, and was sleepwalking.
My personal experience with Benedryl related sleep aids and my own googling suggested to me that she was starting to react negatively to the ingredient. I have more vivid & disturbing dreams when I take it. I was also concerned with the potential liver damage aspect of the acetaminophen.
I started to pressure my ex, who at the time had custody 12 days out of 14, to reduce the dosage - to start to wean my daughter off this med. This was met with resistance and Sally stayed on it.
During her two days per fortnight with me, I continued the med. Her psychological dependence on them was clear and I didn’t think I could fight that problem given my limited contact.
When I started half custody this past April, I saw the opportunity. After some time to stabilize (IMO) the household, I started this month to reduce the dosage. I got Sally’s buy-in to the idea this med might be responsible for her nightmares & I suggested we move to half pills (quarter adult doses). We did this for a week with general success. I informed her mother of this success and asked her to continue half pills while she was with her. We would then discuss the best way to stop the remaining dosage in a couple weeks.
When I got my daughter after that week, I asked if she had half pills with her mother. “No”, she said, “half-pills don’t work at Mom’s”. I started the process over again with half-pills. I then had an “animated” conversation with her mother (at drop off time) about the dosage.
My Ex defended their use at first, told me of their harmlessness and Sally’s needs, and then changed stories and said Sally hadn’t gotten them for months at her house. I didn’t believe her because Sally said differently. I told her so and I pointed out the inconsistencies in that conversation. She stuck by the statement.
I then wrote a rather forceful letter to her Mom that I thought the pills were at fault & should be stopped. I cited some of the same points other google-enabled SD posters have used in these threads. I told her I would stop the pills altogether on my next week since she claimed she wasn’t using them.
After Sally spent that week with her Mom & returned to me, she said that her mom came to her on her first evening there and said that she and her boyfriend have been discussing it, and they think she should stop the pills. Sally agreed (buy-in is important for the psychologically dependent) and she did without the pills that week for the first time is probably 18 months. I’m very proud of her for this.
The next week at my house is the one with the loud, weepy drama at the second half of the week. I believe my daughter was trying to make a case to have a pill one night and I said no.
I came to IMHO in my frustration looking for advice on how to help her feel more at home in my house (which I think is a stress-causing), learning to be away from her mother (more stress), reducing her fears of being away from her mom’s home (more stress), and allowing her to actually sleep in her bed without drugging her again. I also expressed my anger at her mother for not, IMO, helping her daughter adjust to shared custody. That was off-topic for what I was hoping to achieve and called down the judgment of many dopers concerning my mental health and the degree to which I gotten “over” my ex-wife.
Two days ago I called Sally’s pediatrician’s practice, he returned my call yesterday. I explained the dosage, the medication, the method, and the time span and he said I had nothing to worry about. The key he said to causing tylenol-based liver damage is excessive dosage and the dosage we were using was age and size appropriate.
That’s pretty much the facts thus far.
As far as being called a liar - I got defensive but when I try to answer the accusations, I’m met with more accusations of lying. It’s no-win for me.
In that defensive process I insulted Shayna, and then quickly edited the post to soften. I accused her of riding a high-and-mighty, holier-than-thou horse. The sentence was edited to remove additional verbiage concerning the horse and potential options with regard to its anatomy.
I was angry and my response was crude. I stand by what remains now, though, I’m just glad I made the edit window. Anaamika read it though and deserved a separate apology.
Note to whomever: The “facts” above are true but that assurance doesn’t matter if I’m a liar. Caveat emptor.
Shayna, you’ve been giving a lot of opinions on what’s proper parenting, what’s proper medical care, and how to manage a relationship with an ex-spouse.
May I ask your qualifications? I just reviewed every post in the other thread and all I was able to find is that you probably watch Supernanny. Do you have children? Are you divorced? Do you manage a relationship with an ex-spouse? Do you have any medical training?
Thank you in advance.
I don’t think either parent here needs to be either whitewashed or demonized. But I am concerned that when lines of communication are filled with the divorce crap (I’ve been there), that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth often gets left out of stories. Human beings lie. They tell half truths. They dissemble. They particularly do these things when someone they aren’t fond of but need to cooperate with calls them on doing something sorta stupid - like giving a child an adult medication for a lengthy period of time.
As I said in the other thread, this is hitting home as I have a sister with alcoholic hepatitis. Self inflicted, but the amounts of alcohol SHE told us and doctors and the rehab clinics she ingested SHOULDN’T have caused damage in the amount of time we are talking about. Either, she is lying about quantity and/or duration (probable, gee an alcoholic that lies about their intake?), there were other factors (probable, she is underweight and has a diet heavy in salt), or she has a particularly sensitive liver (also probable, both my other sister and I scan sorta high but not worrisome on blood tests for whatever “your liver is stressed” thing they go looking for - I drink socially, my sister had been nursing or pregnant for three years before they ran hers - then she went through chemo and I have no idea if that stressed her liver) Therefore, I’m fond of the idea of a blood scan from the “its the only way to be sure that there aren’t other factors at play.” Although I think that here, the risk is near zero. But its a kid, and parents are responsible for the health of their kids.
You must spend an awful lot of time and money at the doctor’s office. I wish I could get **more ** medical help over the phone and internet from my doctor.
Why exactly is this worthy of a tongue-lashing?
[herby hijack]
Oops, you’re right. I should have said GROW IT IN A CONTAINER!!! Like any mint, it’ll take over Cleveland in three summers if you let it wander free.
(I’d be happy to take extra off your hands, by the way. I can tincture the stuff. PM me if you want me to pick some up. I’ll even harvest it.)[/hh]
NOW you tell me, after I spent last weekend ripping it out. Well, almost all of it. It likes cool weather and mild frosts don’t kill it, so perhaps by fall I’l have another “harvest” for you. My entire back side bed is sprinkled with it so no doubt it’ll grow back. Remind me!
I don’t know where to start re this whole dosage and length of time thing. Tylenol is a great drug because when taken in appropriate doses, it relieves a number of symptoms while not causing side effects like other similar drugs do. That’s one reason it’s in so many combination meds. Aspirin can “thin” the blood and cause gastric ulcers (and kids shouldn’t take aspirin due to Reye’s syndrome); ibuprofen can lead to liver/gastric issues. Acetaminophen doesn’t UNLESS you exceed the proper dose.
Sally has never (AFAWK) ever exceeded the proper dosage. Since she has a healthy liver (and I do believe the doc who has followed her all her life that she does. No, s/he didn’t say so, but it is implied), this dose of Tylenol is within the range known to be not harmful.
It’s like feeding a machine–say a shredder. As long as you don’t exceed the capacity of the machine, it will shred well for a very long time. If you try to stuff the shredder, it will jam, vomit the paper and stall. Over time, the shredder, with constant use, will start to show signs of wear and tear, but here is the analogy ends. The liver (indeed our whole body) is remade over time; it is not static like a shredder.
Now, none of this means that I think Sally is just fine and there are no worries. I would be very dubious of keeping my child on such a med for such a long time. I don’t approve of the practice, no matter how innocuous it seems. I would have questioned the doc and probably told him no. But, the Ex didn’t do that. She played Dr Mom --frankly, I think she was medicating Sally so that Mom could get some sleep. Something tells me that Sally ain’t all that happy at home with dear old Mom, but clings to her as the only familiar thing she knows, but that’s another matter. This may sound like honor among thieves (because that’s what it is), but at least the Ex didn’t exceed the dosage (that we know about) or give Sally a shot of liquor each night at bedtime like some parents I’ve heard of.
IOW, is this the best solution to a troubled child? I don’t think so. It is actively harmful to the child and requires immediate action? I don’t think so. It lies somewhere in the middle. It is not a wise or prudent practice, to be sure. But it is not as reckless and endangering as some have made it seem.
I’m glad to hear that Ex is trying to get Sally off the med. Good luck.
Know what? I don’t know you. I don’t know Shayna. I read the whole thread and this one too. I’m venturing no opinion on the topic of the original thread, nor on this pitting. I just want to say to you:
Fuck You.
This post is bullshit. You drag people you don’t know on a “public” (paid…whatever) website into your life and solicit their opinions, advice, sympathy, etc? And then, when people don’t have opinions you like, advice you want to take, sufficient sympathy, you pull this crap? If there are admission requirements to answer your fucking posts, then fucking put them in the OP. Otherwise, take what you like and ignore the rest. I fucking HATE this kind of bullshit questioning, like adults who aren’t in your exact situation can’t possibly have the mental capacity, the empathy, the imagination, or their own childhood experiences to address you? May I ask your qualifications? Again, let me say: FUCK YOU.
Oh, it’ll be back by August, hon! I will email or PM you 'round then.
IANAD, nor a nurse, but I am rather more educated about health stuff than your average bear, and I agree with all of this. Not ideal, not even “good”, but not exactly the equivalent of giving her a loaded .45, either. I didn’t have the balls to say it without some letters after my name, but I feel confident enough to say “ditto”.
Yes, no doubt you and Shayna were kicking and screaming the entire time. It must be awful to be forced to participate in a thread against your will, poor dear.
And since you hate bullshit so much, allow me to dispel some of your own. Belrix never, as you are claiming, stipulated that Shayna’s participation was predicated on her qualifications as a parent. It’s perfectly valid, when given authoritative-sounding advice, to question the qualifications of the advice giver. If, for example, someone were to offer me medical advice I’d want to know if he were a doctor or just some blowhard on the internet. Wouldn’t you? Belrix has every right to ask and Shayna has every right to refuse to answer.
If I were in Belrix’s shoes, I’d want to know, too; parenting advice given by an actual parent is almost certainly going to carry more weight than advice from a non-parent. Why shouldn’t it?
I really do appreciate your faux concern, faceless internet typer, and your very necessary correction of my opinion that Belrix should fuck off. If you don’t infer from his condescending May I ask your qualifications? (qualifications to do what, exactly? Offer her opinion on parenting, managing a relationship with an ex, or her opinion that a doctor maybe shouldn’t approve the use of a medication that isn’t intended for children without seeing her after it has been used on her for a YEAR?) what I inferred, which is that she should just STFU if she doesn’t have the right qualifications, then YM does indeed V from mine. Congrats, btw, on having the proper qualifications to participate in this thread, which has nothing to do with Tylenol (Jr OR PM), and many others, I’m sure. Good on ya.
Hypocrite much? If condescension was actually worth anything, you’d be Bill Gates.
And let me remind you, since you seem to be so taken with your won opinions, that just because you infer something doesn’t mean your inference is accurate. But, let’s not let reason get in the way of your bitchy self-righteousness.
I apologize Q.E.D. I actually got you confused with another poster, which is why I replied. When I thought you were the other person, I was a little stung by your opinion of me. Had I realized which one you are, I would not have responded in the first place. Now I realize my error.
Touching. Your apology is as valuable and worthwhile to me as anything you’ve posted here. And I mean that as sincerely as I can muster.