Kudos to Mississippi

[Needs2know]

First of all I’m not a “he” I’m a “she”. And if you mean that I’m a “damned Yankee” because…I was born somewhere other than the South…Zippppp! Born at Richmond Memorial Hostpital, Richmond, VA August 12, 1958. Other than a couple of years spent living in Indiana, raised here too or in one of the surrounding counties. Right now I live within spitting distance of Lee’s headquarters during the siege of Petersburg. Of course it’s also the site of where Lafayette had his headquarters during the Revolutionary War, but I’ve yet to meet a peckerwood around here that gives a shit about that.

Gee, now we get to talk about “slippery slope” situations. Yep, it happens, in Richmond they’ve talked about denying funding for the upkeep of monuments on the avenue. Somehow though I just don’t think it does either “side” much good for us to keep this up. I really don’t think that black Virginians would push this issue quite so much if our own Southern apologists would stop trying to ram it all down their throats. The opening of the flood wall a couple of years ago is a good example. They made it into a big event, there’s a “river walk” park theme attached to the site. They hung banners on the wall. One “had” to be of Robert E. Lee. Why? Hell if I know. The entire subject just seemed to be another “let’s draw a line in the sand for these n_ggers!”. What did Lee have to do with the flood wall anyway? Or the canal, very little, the history of the canal is black history, they built it, they worked it. Of course that might have a lot to do with the failure of Treadegar Park too, the white folks stayed away in droves. The Apologists tried to kick up a ruckus this year when Gov. Gilmore declared April “Civil War History” month instead of “Confederate History Month”. It didn’t work much this time, it died down. Most people with any good sense can see that if we “have” to designate a “month” to observe this time in history then the scope of that designation should include everyone. It isn’t like just Southern boys gave up their lives on this land. Poor young men from as far as Maine and Vermont shed their blood on this soil. And now we are one nation again, if we must remember this time let’s remember it accurately. Let’s honor all of our fallen heros.

I see no real end to this, until all the Apologists die off. Problem is they are training their children to embrace their separationist ideals. Our young people can learn a lot from this history. They can be proud of the beauty of their Southern cities, the strength and fortitude of their ancestors, and the progress we have made as a united nation. We do not need this divisive retoric to continue. All Southerners, black and white, can share in our history and be proud of contributions, but only if we are willing to be honest about how we got here.

Needs2know

[minty_green]

Well said, Needs2know.

[Ivorybill]

This might be a hijack of a hijack… But as we’ve left the OP waaayyy back there, perhaps it doesn’t matter.

In spoke-'s GD thread “Were Confederates the Moral Equivalent of Nazis?” I mentioned that here in New Orleans (a city that has a 60% to 70% African American majority population), there is a discussion about moving many C.W. statues and monuments to various cemetaries around town. There is symbolic and practical merit to this proposal, IMHO. Perhaps, Needs2Know, you could start a similar campaign in Richmond, since you seem to feel VERY strongly about these issues.

To respond to Pantom and others who seem to run into “Confederate Apologists” with apparently alarming (for them, anyhoo) frequency: I’d hesitate to launch into generalizations that the majority of southerners haven’t “gotten over” the loss of the C.W., especially if you’re basing this position from chatter on message board threads devoted to the subject or on comments overheard at C.W. battlefields. Now, if in a G.D. thread on Taiwan, for instance, a majority of the southern Dopers made mournful C.W. references and tried to make C.W. analogies, that might justify such a generalization.

Lastly, to celestina: we were talking about what would look good on a new heritage-inclusive, non-offensive, southern flag. I, for one, love fried chicken, but would give up bourbon before I’d agree to having chicken on a flag. Greens, however, is a different matter entirely.

[Saint_Zero]

*Originally posted by MEBuckner *
**According to this web page 49% of Mississippi families owned at least one slave. **

Now, aside from finding out my old Mississippi history book has a lot of explaining to do, is that this runs counter to the arguement that slaves were hard to own. Crap, I didn’t realise this many people could afford them.

This looks wierd. And has nothing to do with the flag arguement, but oh well. More reading.

[pantom]

kniz: The price of a commodity is determined by…its supply and demand. How it’s produced is a choice made by the producer, not the consumer.
An argument could even be logically made, following the testimony of Tocqueville in Democracy in America that slave farms were less efficient than farms worked by freemen, that the price of cotton was actually higher than it otherwise would be because of the impediments to efficient production that slavery threw up. And, therefore, that the North suffered as a result of the slave economy of the South.
I’m not arguing that this is a fact, as I have no evidence, one way or the other. It is, however, a plausible scenario. Point being that the North was simply paying the market price for cotton (and rice and tobacco and whatever else Southern agriculture produced) without any regard for how it was produced. The North had no economic interest in slavery and derived no economic benefit from it. It may even have suffered economically from its use in the South.

[pantom]

Ivorybill: I’m not basing my opinion on chatter on this message board or the behavior of a lone individual at Gettysburg. I’m actually of the opinion, in my more optimistic moments, that whites in the South have long since gotten over the war.
Then along comes this Mississippi flag vote and shoots that feeling all to hell. I’m not sure what to think actually. I do think that voting booth behavior, because it’s secret and universal and unrestricted for adults, is a far more accurate way of measuring how far along Southerners have come. By that measure, the answer would have to be, sadly, not very far.

[Soup_du_jour]

If I remember history correctly, it is “Old Glory” that flew when:

-We ruthlessly slaughtered Indiginous Peoples on our quest for more land.

-America waged an immoral war against Spain, just for territory grabbing.

-The good 'ole USA grabbed Pacific islands (Guam, Phillipenes (sp?), . . . ) in the quest for more resources, not allowing our new territories to become states, totally ignoring the Northwest Ordinance. One justice, in his decision, stated that the "Constitution does not follow the flag.

-We used millitary force to force Japan into trade.

-…And then forced native Japanese into internment camps during WWII.

-We tricked Central America into becoming, essentially, United States protectorates.

-We conquered Hawaii, overthrowing the queen.

-We contribute an obscene amount of pollution, killing the Earth.

Finally, in the original US Constitution, “Negroes” were counted as 3/5 of “White Men” for census purposes.
Can we say that “Old Glory” is a symbol of all of the junk that we have done to others? Should we ditch it?

No. For too many, the flag is a symbol of freedom, democracy, and liberty.

If I am seriously offended by the flag, should we make every possible effort to remove it, because it stands for so much hate?

No, because we live in a society dictated by the will of the majority. The majority is not offended, therefore, the flag stays.

Same for the Mississippi voters. A majority is not offended (at least a majority of those who voted, and I have no pity for those who didn’t vote.)
Fun fact: Lee freed his own slaves previous to his serving in the war.

[MEBuckner]

Old Glory also flew over the American troops who liberated Europe from the Nazis; Old Glory was planted on the Moon by the first human beings to set foot on another world, and is stenciled on the sides of the first human-made objects to escape the Solar System; and Old Glory was carried by the civil rights demonstrators who marched with Marin Luther King. The Confederate States of America was dedicated from its inception to the preservation of slavery and white supremacy, and it never had a chance to do anything but fight for slavery and white supremacy. The flags and symbols of the Confederacy can therefore never escape being linked with the original and ultimate Confederate cause.

[kniz]

Pantom according to your economic theory England did just as they should have and simply bought cheaper goods from their colonies. Therefore, Gandi had nothing to complain about to England and the American colonists should not have revolted. IBM certainly should not be criticized for selling card sorters to Germany that were used to identify Jewish people. They after all were simply exercising free trade. Kathie Lee deserves an apology.

Monty I was simply making the above point and do not defend the use of slavery or pretend that the Civil War was not fought over the right to hold slaves. I simply think that the north was not as faultless as they would like to betray themselves. There were people that benefited from slavery in the south and in the north. There were also people who were against slavery in the south as well as in the north. If that were not true the underground railroad would never have gotten on track (pun intended).

Needs2Know seems not to know what a “Damn Yankee” is so I will define one type of “Damn Yankee”: "Someone from outside the south, who insists that everyone from the south thinks and talks about the Civil War and slavery all the time.

Waitress: “Would you like grits, with your eggs?”
Patron: “No thanks”.
Waitress leaves table
Patron to friend: “These people eat such strange things and are always talking about the Civil War.”

As an example Reeder didn’t mention the Civil War, slavery or even the Confederate flag. Pantom and MEBuckner got that part of the discussion started. Sorry, y’all but the shoe fits.

[MEBuckner]

Needs2Know seems not to know what a “Damn Yankee” is so I will define one type of “Damn Yankee”: "Someone from outside the south, who insists that everyone from the south thinks and talks about the Civil War and slavery all the time.

Kniz, Needs2Know just said that she’s not someone “from outside the south”…she was born and raised in Richmond, Virginia.

As an example Reeder didn’t mention the Civil War, slavery or even the Confederate flag. Pantom and MEBuckner got that part of the discussion started. Sorry, y’all but the shoe fits.

Reeder didn’t use the words “Confederate flag”, no; what he posted was

Don’t let others decide what your flag should be. Decide for yourselves.

A 2-1 margin for keeping the old one!

Don’t let the hate mongers steal your heritage. Way to stand by your guns!

But it’s not as if the Mississippi flag has a star and crescent or a picture of Mickey Mouse on it. What he was in fact saying was:

Don’t let others decide what your flag should be. Decide for yourselves.

A 2-1 margin for keeping the old one [with the Confederate Battle Flag on it]!

Don’t let the hate mongers steal your heritage [as exemplified by the Confederate Battle Flag]. Way to stand by your guns!

[Monty]

*Originally posted by kniz *
Monty I was simply making the above point and do not defend the use of slavery or pretend that the Civil War was not fought over the right to hold slaves.

But you still don’t seem to get it: the states which seceded did so because of slavery. The state governments would rather destroy the country than relinquish slavery.

I simply think that the north was not as faultless as they would like to betray themselves.

First: That should be “portray” and not “betray.”

Second: How many states in the North seceded? Oh, yeah: ZERO! The North was obviously not part of the rebellion.

There were people that benefited from slavery in the south and in the north.

No kidding. But overall, slavery was not of benefit to anyone other than the very rich. Also, a couple of slave states did not secede.

There were also people who were against slavery in the south as well as in the north.

And the laws in the slave states protected slave owners and abused the slaves. Feel free to read F. Douglass’s stuff sometime.

If that were not true the underground railroad would never have gotten on track (pun intended).

And the slave owners and other bigots in the slave states weren’t too happy with those people either.

[mangeorge]

The Underground Railroad, more popularly known as “nigger lovers” or sometimes as “nigger kissers”, were some of the few people who were more badly treated by southerners than were the slaves they sought to free. And if I recall correctly the anti-slavery whites in the south did not support secession.
I grew up in Bakeresfield, CA, in the fifties and sixties. Most of the white people I knew were from the south. The rebel flag was even then very popular. Not as a symbol of peaceful solidarity, but as a symbol of white supremacy.
To most people I’ve disussed it with, white and minority, the confederate flag brings to mind hate and bigotry. Next time you hear a bunch of white people (yes, especailly southerners) talking about such things as equality, affirmative action, and inter-racial couples, listen closely.
That attitude is what the rebel flag means to me.
Peace,
mangeorge

[kniz]

Monty what you don’t understand is that when I stepped in the voting booth and voted for the old flag I was not thinking of or caring about the slave owners, the Civil War or anything like that. I was possibly thinking about present day “Damn Yankees” that were sticking their noses in where they don’t belong. Saint Zero stated that he voted for the new flag, so that you folks would have a better opinion of Mississippi. Basically the difference between ** Saint Zero ** and myself is that he is still optimistic and I am cynical that people like you will ever change your minds. Let’s face it someone has to be on the bottom of the heap (in other’s opinions) and we are pretty well accustomed to it. While you’re worried about what we’re doing and thinking about slavery and the Civil War, we’ll do what ** xenophon41** suggests, we’ll sneak up on you and leave you in our dust.

P.S. Regards to “betray” and “portray”, I’d rather think of it as a Freudian Slip.

[system]

*Originally posted by kniz *
Pantom according to your economic theory England did just as they should have and simply bought cheaper goods from their colonies. Therefore, Gandi had nothing to complain about to England and the American colonists should not have revolted. IBM certainly should not be criticized for selling card sorters to Germany that were used to identify Jewish people. They after all were simply exercising free trade. Kathie Lee deserves an apology.

Interesting attempt to rebut, but I am afraid you’re overlooking some glaring differences:
(I) England and Colonies:
(a) Control of production: colonies were compelled to produce for mother England, e.g. Indian production of linens as I recall as not a free market engagement on the part of Indian producers after the Raj was in place. One can not reasonably say the Southern planters were compelled by legal or extra-legal means to undertake the production of raw goods as captive sources.
(b) Political control: whatever hand-waving you may try there is no real analogy here: the colonies were under British political control and not free in their political decisions, above all in re the political economy. The South sent reps to the central gov, in fact the Slave states may reasonably be characterized as having been over-represented.
(II) IBM is quite irrelevant to the issue, but frankly I don’t believe they can be criticized fairly for the punch card sales.

0 for 2.

[Monty]

*Originally posted by kniz *
Monty what you don’t understand is that when I stepped in the voting booth and voted for the old flag I was not thinking of or caring about the slave owners, the Civil War or anything like that. I was possibly thinking about present day “Damn Yankees” that were sticking their noses in where they don’t belong.

Actually, that’s kind of the whole idea behind the federal system: so some backwater places don’t take it upon themselves to disregard the rights of other people “just because they’re from out of town/state/region.” Also, I actually grew up in Dixie: Virginia, mostly, and Tennessee and Georgia. Heck, I even lived in Meridian, MS, for three hellish months.

Oh, and the state flag having the Confederate Battle Flag as part if it is nothing but a celebration of the state’s participation in the Civil War. Some of us pro-Union folks kind of like to think that rebellion against the United States wasn’t a good thing.

Saint Zero stated that he voted for the new flag, so that you folks would have a better opinion of Mississippi.

I’d say that’s an enlightened (read: not 1860 AD) view point and it’s also one step in the right direction.

Basically the difference between ** Saint Zero ** and myself is that he is still optimistic and I am cynical that people like you will ever change your minds.

I change my mind on some things. The prejudice, bigotry, and irrationality with which I was confronted when I lived in good ol’ Dixie are actually the things that need to disappear. Lose that crap and I’ll start to think it’s overall a genial place to live.

Let’s face it someone has to be on the bottom of the heap (in other’s opinions)

Actually, nobody has to be on the bottom of the heap. Come to think of it, that argument about “somebody has to be on the bottom” used to be used to justify slavery.

and we are pretty well accustomed to it.

Martyr syndrome. Big whoop.

While you’re worried about what we’re doing and thinking about slavery and the Civil War, we’ll do what ** xenophon41** suggests, we’ll sneak up on you and leave you in our dust.

I seriously doubt the Great State of California has anything at all to fear from Mississippi. Please note that the condition your state is in is largely self-inflicted, IMHO.

P.S. Regards to “betray” and “portray”, I’d rather think of it as a Freudian Slip.

So you’re saying that I’m correct? Or do you not understand exactly what a Freudian Slip is?

[kniz]

** Collounsbury ** I’m so glad you climed in, since I thought there were only a few Damn Yankees on this board.

So that you don’t have to go back and read everything, let me make totally clear that I am a Yankee who has lived in the south for over 40 years. My ancestors came to Lancaster, Pa from Switzerland sometime in the early 1700’s or maybe even late 1600’s. They established grain mills (2)in Lancaster and one about 90 miles east of there. At least one served in the Revolutionary War. Then my branch of the family moved to around Dayton, OH and built a complex of with a lumber mill, grain mill, distillery and tannery. The ancestor that moved to Ohio had several sons and even though we know one son went to hunt gold in California, we have no information about anyone serving in the Civil War. However, if they did it would have been on the Union side. My folks moved to Atlanta in 1949 and it was no fun at all being a Yankee back then. It didn’t take me long to realize two things 1) I could never become a southerner 2) My best hope for survival was to learn how not to be a Damn Yankee.

Another Damn Yankee scenario:

Two of my friends and I are sitting at a filling station talking about women. Along comes a car with a Michigan license tag.

Driver: “Howdy y’all” hahaha “I got that from Hee Haw!”

We all laugh like we’ve never heard that before.

“We just came from that battlefield, Shiloh. You folks sure built a bunch of those. Bet you wished you’d won the war, don’t you.”

“Course, we do” answers one of my friends.

Driver: “Is there anywhere we could go fishing? I know there won’t be as good fishing as there is up in Michigan, but we’d like to try it out.”

Other friend “There’s a bait shop on the left just down the road. They can tell where they are biting these days”.

Driver: “I hope I can follow their directions. You people have such funny names for places and your roads aren’t as good as ours”.

First friend: “Good luck, you’ll need it”.

Driver: “Thanks. You really have that southern hospitality”. Drives away

Second friend: “Tell me, Kniz, when are you Damned Yankees going to change?”

We all laugh.

[pantom]

kniz: by your economic theory the USA is responsible for the application of the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. I mean, how far into the absurd do you want to take this?

[celestina]

---

Ivorybill said:
“Lastly, to celestina: we were talking about what would look good on a new heritage-inclusive, non-offensive, southern flag. I, for one, love fried chicken, but would give up bourbon before I’d agree to having chicken on a flag. Greens, however, is a different matter entirely.”

---

Point taken. Sorry. I saw folks was talking about food and got hungry and got side-tracked. Must be my old age. But, I still think having a plate of fried chicken with some Creasy greens on the side, and oh let’s put in some cornbread for good measure, and top it off with a glass of bourbon–but it can’t be any particular name brand because I don’t think we could agree on what the best bourbon is–and you’ve got yourself a very nice, unique, “heritage-inclusive, non-offensive” flag! Think about it, if you were a Damn Yankee and saw a flag representing the South that had on it a plate of good food and a glass of liquor on the side, wouldn’t you want to check out the South? It’d certainly make me want to stop somewhere and get me a plate.

[mangeorge]

Add some fried potatoes with chicken gravy to them chicken and greens, please.
Oh yeah, the best bourbon is a nice California merlot.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Saint_Zero]

*Originally posted by kniz *
**Saint Zero stated that he voted for the new flag, so that you folks would have a better opinion of Mississippi. **

Bull. I voted for the new flag because I’m tired of seeing people like you fight a war which was stupid in the first place, and should have been over over 140 years ago in the second place.

We will never go forward in Mississippi unless people like you** Kniz** get over it. The Civil War happened, we lost, get over it. I, for one, will not deify ancestors who fought to defend a horrible way of life under any circumstances.

A lot of atrocities happened in the civil war, the worst of all being this continual whitewash of the past by people like you. Get the FUCK over it.

**
Basically the difference between ** Saint Zero ** and myself is that he is still optimistic and I am cynical that people like you will ever change your minds. **

People will change their minds, don’t worry.

**
Let’s face it someone has to be on the bottom of the heap (in other’s opinions) and we are pretty well accustomed to it.**

This is the most appaling thing you have to say. I don’t know if you have kids, but I’m fighting for a better future for my two than living in a gutter, full of people who keep rebelling for no other reason than it’s all they know. Maybe you’re happy with living in the slime and filth of a people who don’t want to give up a 140 year old war, or admit there might have been even a hint of injustice about the situation.
Let me repeat this. The war is over. We lost. Get over it.