no, they’re always jerks. they’re just really good at fooling you.
Treat me poorly? No. In my single days they usually were just gay.
Hell even now at least half the time when I see a jaw-dropper, he turns out to be gay.
No. I defy stereotypes, so I’m attracted to guys who tell me I’m pretty and buy me stuff.
We must stay strong, sister.
I’ve certainly fucked a few guys who weren’t exactly “take 'em home to mama” types, but for the most part I’ve only ever dated nice guys. I’ve said more than one that I made exactly one good decision when I was 18, and that was asking my (now) husband out.
People in general have a low opinion of me, it seems.
I don’t know enough about you to have any kind of opinion of you. All I know is that people rarely “become” jerks. People who are inherently jerks frequently seem to have the talent to hide how jerky they are when necessary.
i.e. they’re sociopaths.
No. Never. Because it’s stupid and self destructive.
Me? I’m not saying anything against you. But if you keep finding yourself in the position where guys seem nice and then turn out to be jerks, on some level you probably are seeking out jerks. Obviously it could happen to anyone occasionally, but if it happens a lot it’s probably not just chance.
I’m the same way, and at times I’ve insisted guys really seemed nice at first, so that’s proof that I do like nice guys. But I don’t think I was being realistic either. I think they were clearly arrogant before they started being directly jerky to me.
From what I’ve seen as man it’s several interrelated factors.
While there are budding male sociopaths out there a good chunk of the “treated me badly” context in relationships that broke up messily, per Even Sven’s example, come from huge disconnects in expectations related to outcomes. Many women, per Even Sven’s point, are hugely invested in the relationship and the men are not, and when it breaks up there is often a profound sense of betrayal of trust.
Another factor is that men respond to feedback. I have a co-worker who can say (and occasionally do) things with women in social situations that would get me thrown in jail and they love it. He’s reasonably attractive, but he’s not that good looking, it’s really his confident “I don’t give a shit what you think attitude” that draws them like bees to honey, and I’m not really talking about them having an overt sexual interest in him, it’s just that they are postively drawn to that devil may care attitude.
Women want what they want, and what they appear to want via their actions is often at odds with what they say they want.
A lot of guys who will say that they are nice guys actually aren’t nice. They are nice to other men, but when it comes to women, they think that they are ENTITLED to a particular woman just because they are attracted to her. See, the thing is, if a “nice guy” wants a particular woman, she isn’t allowed to be uninterested in him. From his point of view, if he does the mating dance for her, she’s obliged to mate with him. She isn’t entitled to a choice. And if she DOES reject his advances, it must because women only fall for jerks. So he makes a choice to become a jerk in order to attract women. When this doesn’t work as well as he thought it would, then he thinks that he’s not a big enough jerk, so he steps it up. And eventually you get Tom Leykis.
I’ve only been with one guy who was an asshole. I refused to see it at first because he was so charming, exciting and all-encompassing. So, it wasn’t intentional, per se. But ignoring the signs, it was much more fun and self-esteem boosting to begin with that it didn’t matter. I’d never made that mistake before or since. It ain’t worth the heart or headache.
In all seriousness, everybody falls for a stealth asshole once or twice. That’s how you learn to spot and avoid them. Anyone who says that they’ve never, ever found themselves attracted to someone who wasn’t, as it turns out, a very nice person, is lying to us or to themselves or has just plain not dated much.
I’m male. I’ve been married for awhile, and my perceptions about how attraction works have changed as a result. Now that I’m “off the market” for several years, I can look at relationships with a more analytical perspective.
I used to be upset that people who are obvious bald-faced jerks got women, while I had a hard time even making a good first impression. Now, in hindsight, I know that it’s not the jerk-ness that attracts women, but the confidence. Women don’t usually like timid, shy, self-conscious men.
Now that I’m not trying to impress women anymore, and have absolutely nothing at stake in the dating game, women pay more attention to me. It’s not because something fundamental changed about women, but rather something about ME changed. I no longer have a reason to be shy, or doubt myself. Getting rejected by a random woman is literally impossible, since I’m not seeking acceptance.
Non-jerks who are comfortable in their own skin, and treat people well, and are considerate and caring are just as attractive to women as the swaggering meatheads all of us dorks focused our hatred on in high school. Nice guys don’t necessarily finish last!
TLDR version; I sympathize with the “women only like jerks!” sentiment, but it’s wrong.
Are you implying that jerks are likely to be sociopaths? That’s stretching things a bit, I think. My grandfather is a jerk, who has (or had, rather. He’s tired in is old age, now) occasional outbursts of terrifying anger, but if he’s a sociopath I’ll eat my hat.
This reads as sexist when you say it that way. People in general don’t know what they want, more often than not. It isn’t limited to women or men.
I used to listen to him a lot. I listened to him before he did his “Leykis 101” shtick. I didn’t often agree with him, but he gave good radio. Now, I don’t know if he’s even still on the air.
I’m a straight guy who may or may not be a jerk, so I can’t answer the OP.
I think you’ve almost, but not quite, grasped what i was attempting to say. It’s not so much a disconnect in expectations between men and women- which makes it sound like these poor naive women are blindly investing without realizing they are being used by cads.
The disconnect is between women and themselves. The average age of a college-educated woman’s first marriage is 30. But our concept of a “successful” relationship for a 20 year old woman is the same as it is for a 28 year old woman’s. Women’s relationships are judged by how close they are getting towards lifelong commitment, whether or not that’s what she wants or needs at the moment. And a 20 year old woman is likely to be years and years away from wanting or needing a marriage-level connection. So young women choose partners based on what they want and need (and thus are attracted to), but judge the relationship based on these inappropriate and outdated metrics. This causes emotional turmoil, because they feel like they should invest to keep a relationship together and they’ve failed if the relationship breaks up, and they have trouble acknowledging “Hey, he’s not my soulmate. He’s some guy I’m going to date for a while and we’ll both move on soon enough.”
Guys have a much more appropriate model where they are encouraged to have fun spending time with a variety of women, until they finally decide they are ready to meet a nice girl and settle down. They have an appropriate social script for the early 20s.
I’m a big advocate for old fashioned dating. Our current model is back-assward for women. Women scoff and say “Eww, nobody dates any more. We just kind of hook up or spend time together and it automatically becomes exclusive.” This means that women are investing in relationships and cutting off their other options just because a guy happened to be the first one to call her back after a hook-up. And then, you guys stay invested in each other until one of you decides to ditch it. But women are trained to invest and invest early, so they often end up getting hurt when it actually just was never a viable relationship to begin with.
It makes a lot more sense to keep a few options on the table and get to know different until you’ve gone on a few real-life dates (not just “hanging out”) with the same guy over the course of a month or so with someone and you both decide together to bump it up to the next level. Dating lets you see if the mutual interest really is there, and then make the investment.
Lynn, this is a very insightful remark on your part. I have often thought of an unrequited love “I am such a nice guy, why doesn’t she want me!” That I might not be such a nice guy, or that even if I am nice that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with her for rejecting me, do not even occur to me. Instead I create a sort of mental defensive sphere that makes me look good at the expense of the truth. Did she reject me? She’s shallow! Did this other chick reject me? She’ll regret it! Etc, etc. It is an important chain of thought to break out of. “The truth shall set you free, but first it shall make you angry.”
True. Here are a few.
No, I’ve never been attracted to a man who treated me poorly. I grew up in a household where my parents were excellent role models of a healthy adult relationship, as were all their friends. I can completely understand this happening to people who grew up with these sorts of dysfunctional relationships around them, but for me, the concept is completely alien.