My parents were not good role models of a healthy relationship…but they were good role models of an unhealthy one, and I learned, and I learned early. And my mom has always been a “take no nonsense” type of woman, and I learned that, too.
I have never dated an asshole or a bad boy. I have been in two very short relationships with lazy sods, but never any jerks or assholes. I have felt attraction to a couple of jerks but I knew better than to touch them with a ten foot pole.
This sort of thing has often come into my mind. What makes some women know the jerks intuitively and others don’t, even when the red flags are everywhere? As Sandra says, the concept is completely alien to me.
Our society teaches us that if a man earns enough money, and has enough status and power, that he can perform the mating dance in front of most women in his class/league (socioeconomic class and looks), and the women will automatically be turned on by this, and will date or have sex or marry him, whichever is his goal. If the woman is not moved by his dance, then she’s a bitch, and Must Be Put In Her Place. These teachings are reinforced by popular culture, particularly movies and TV shows. A man is judged primarily by money and/or potential money, and looks and personality are secondary, though still important. But if a man has checked off all the requirements, then he’s entitled to just about any woman he wants, whether or not that woman wants to be involved with him. It’s like…oh, getting a driver’s license. You learn how to drive, you get access to a car, you go down to the DMV, you demonstrate your knowledge (written and road tests), you pay your money, you get your license.
The reality is, women won’t automatically fall for a man who has performed the checklist. It doesn’t mean that the man has failed in some way, or there’s something wrong with him. It just means that a particular woman doesn’t find him appealing in that way.
Women are taught that if they want to marry upwards (a man with more money than the guys in her social group have) then they must look and act a certain way. It doesn’t matter if a woman needs to spend a couple of hours a day in front of a mirror, if she can manage to present a suitable appearance, and act in a certain flirtatious way, then she can snag just about any man. That is, women are Hooters girls, except they’re going after more than just a good tip for this table. But she has to act fast, before her eligibility expires. If she doesn’t attract a man by a certain age, her hopes for a happy life expire. And a happy life is when a woman is married and has kids.
And the reality is, not every man wants to settle down, even though some men are more than happy to date/have sex with a woman on a regular basis. It doesn’t mean that a woman is a failure if she can’t get her Prince Charming to sweep her off her feet and carry her to his castle. It might very well mean that he doesn’t find her appealing in that way.
Fortunately, our society is changing, and we can recognize that not everyone wants a life partner, and that people are individuals, and taste in mates will differ from one person to the next. One man might adore a social butterfly for a wife, while another would find such a woman to be irritating, and would prefer a woman who will help him out at the farm. And one woman might want to be a doctor’s wife for the status and money that she thinks she’ll get, while another woman would be happier with a manual laborer who she gets to see around the house a little more often.
No, but it certainly seems like I keep ending up in relationships with guys who don’t treat me as well as they should. I’m not sure if this means my partner-barometer is fucked up or what, but I’m staying single while I try to figure it out. My mom had the same problem. Twice married to and twice divorced from immature assholes. I worry that I’m doomed to repeat the pattern. Although I had enough foresight to get out before getting married, at least.
I guess the problem is, abusive people don’t always start out that way. My red-flag-o-meter is tuned fairly finely, but I keep getting screwed over.
Sometime lurker making my first post here; at the risk of thread-jacking, I find your statement alarming, in the sense that it is an often repeated and often prejudicial characterization of “nice guys”; a term that, now we’re at it, has a bizarrely prejudicial connotation.
While it is most certainly descriptive of some self-described “nice guys”, the ones that fulfill your described parameters are, in my admittedly limited experience, most often resemblant of socially dysfunctional recluses, insofar as they actually feel entitlement to a woman.
It is, however, entirely more common that some men simply have an approach to dating that immediately places them at a disadvantage, usually characterized by their approach not being as “aggressive” as is expected of males in the dating game. What often happens (and as I’ve personally been on the receiving end of) is that guys end up “friend-zoned” - which is quite often an intensely hurtful experience.
Imagine, if you will, that you have great chemistry with someone, share multiple interests, etcetera - and yet any attempt to start a relationship is met a priori with (often humiliating) failure. Add to that, if you will, that the immediately evident implication is your own sexual undesirability, rather than say, your being a socially dysfunctional ass, and you have a far more reasonable explanation for the entirely acerbic attitude some “nice guys” have to women - a feeling of entitlement is quite frankly disturbing, but an aversion to having your sexual undesirability, whether it be real or imaginary, rubbed in your face, should be something with which we all can identify.
I’ve often seen men who THINK that they have great chemistry with a woman. However, while the man is attracted to the woman, the woman isn’t attracted to the man. So no, the great chemistry isn’t there. And the man is so focused on the fact that he’s attracted to her, that he doesn’t realize that she’s sending him clues that she isn’t attracted to him. In other words, she has to slap him upside the head with a clue-by-four before he understands that he’s performing his mating dance in front of the wrong female. He’s not being turned down because his approach is wrong, he’s being turned down because he approached the wrong woman, under the mistaken impression that there’s chemistry between them.
Jerks often treat their girl well at the start of the relationship. There’s a big thrill in that - this guy doesn’t like just anyone (as shown by his jerkish rejection of most people) but he loves me! Often he’s on his best behavior to try and impress her at first - and such types are usually very good at making her feel like a princess, when they want to - and the jerk doesn’t show through until later in the relationship.
When women end up in such relationships repeatedly, I don’t think it indicates a subconscious desire to seek out jerks, just that they’re stuck in a pattern that does not end well. There is definitely an element of repeating their parent’s relationship and putting up with a less than ideal relationship because it’s familiar, but saying that women want to be treated badly strikes me as victim blaming.
… which in itself portrays the entire nature of the dating game as being questionable. Sending him clues? Really? Is it the exact angle of her eyelid when she winks at him that gives her non-interest away?
Men of all shapes and sizes are notoriously bad at reading subtle clues; continuous attempts to influence our actions through these “clues” fits the Einsteinian definition of insanity to a letter.
To bring this discussion back to the idea of women being attracted to men who treat them badly - basing your choice of partner on the rather vapid concept of “attractiveness” is a highway to horrible relationship experiences. The most underrated (at least insofar as the 18-25, perhaps 30, demographic is concerned) aspect of a satisfying, functional relationship is the existence of a close friendship upon which it is based. In fact, in my experience, the existence of some-such prior to the existence of a romantic relationship is often considered disqualifying with regards to the conception of exactly that. Couple that with the fact that the hormones responsible for developing classical physical attractiveness in men are also responsible for “punitive behavior” (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789942/?tool=pmcentrez ), and you have a surefire combination for all sorts and manners of tragicomical shenanigans.
This is a good point but you’re answering a *slightly *different question than the one that was asked, though.
You’re saying you’ve bene attracted to men who were not long term relationship meterial, men you wouldn’t want to be with forever. And fair enough, it works both ways. But the OP is asking if you’re attracted to men who treat you badly, and that’s a slightly different thing.
I’m currently seeing a woman with whom I have zero chance of a long term relationship. I know it, and she knows it, and it’s openly acknowleged that we’re just in it to have fun. It’s going nowhere except straight into bed a few times a week. But I don’t treat her poorly, and she doesn’t treat me poorly - in fact, we’re quite nice to each other.
Conversely, when I dated Evil Kate back in the day, she wasn’t nice to me (in general; she could turn it on when she needed to) or, for that matter, anyone else in the world, My reasons for dating Evil Kate were substantially different from my reasons for dating Current FWB. In the former case I was immature, needy, and simply unaware of the fact Evil Kate was a sociopath. In the latter, I’m mature and knew specifically what I was looking for, as is Current FWB. I think the latter case is more what you’re talking about, whereas the former is more than the OP is asking about.
I’m not saying there isn’t some crossover there, but I think in general I’ve already sort of laid out the difference; people get into legitimate toxic relationships with mean people because of emotional deficiencies and problems they’re usually unaware of that the relationship, in a twisted way, fills, but they’re often unconscious of this dynamic and so think it’s a True Love <TM> thing where, gosh, I need this man/woman because I’ m in True Love and somehow this shit will sort itself out, cue the blather about not being good enough it’s all my fault blah blah blah People get into healthy “I’m just having fun” relationships because it fills a need that they ARE aware of and can manage.
Learn to love the boring guy who doesn’t know how to dress. He’s probably not really boring, just quietly confident in his ability to do what he likes. At the very least, his self-worth isn’t attached to his dick or biceps.
No, I am not attracted to “bad boys”. Once upon a time when I didn’t know any better I did date a total jerk, but then I grew up. If a guy wants to act the arse, then he can find someone else.
These are the things that baffle me, because I know most women are smarter than this:
Why are jerks seen to have confidence? Confident assertiveness is NOT the same thing as asshole aggressiveness. In fact, most jerks have low self-esteem; that’s why they’re jerks!
When did “bad boy” come to mean “jerk” ? I know a few guys(myself included)who have always been rebellious and dangerously exciting BUT still treat women well-- especially our girlfriends.
When did “nice guy” come to mean “boring” ? Ask anyone who knows me, exes included, and they will tell you I am anything but boring. BUT I can also hold a job and I don’t cheat and have never hit a woman.
That’s basically all men. We simply don’t put the same amount of effort once we have gotten past the intital courting stage.
Those men often aren’t “performing the mating dance”. A woman isn’t going to sleep with a guy just because he talks her ear off or they share an interest in the Twilight books. And she isn’t going to go on more than one date with a guy if she doesn’t want to sleep with him (or thinks he isn’t interested in sleeping with her).
I disagree with this. It’s true in some cases, but plenty of people who act conceited really are conceited. I think it’s more one of those things that we WANT to be true, that deep down it’s not working for the jerk either, because we like people to get what they deserve. But they often don’t.
Well, you’re just that much awesomer than most people, I guess.
And some people find interpersonal drama exciting, and there’s definitely more of that to be found with jerks.
Not “nice guy” but “Nice Guy”. It is a different brand of nice guy. The real nice guys never have to say they are nice guys. They demonstrate it with their actions every day, and I am with a nice guy, a good and honest and responsible man who is one of the best things to ever happen to me.
Nice Guys are filled with a sense of entitlement.
Also you are extrapolating to every woman. There’s a myriad of reasons why people might think a “nice guy” is boring and part of that, IMO, is the hollywood depiction of romance.
Hollywood has given people this idea that romance must be violins and roses every minute and you must always have butterflies in your stomach or the relationship has gotten stale. That may work for some people but I’d say for the majority after that initial falling-in-love stage people don’t realize how difficult it is to make a relationship work, and also that that butterflies feeling gets replaced with a comfortable, content feeling. Content is OK - not all of us can be ecstatic all the time - but I think at this point people think the “nice guy” becomes boring.
I agree, or rather it’s a different kind of effort, or maybe I just have a really good man. Maybe he doesn’t write me love letters like he did when we were just starting, but he surprises me with Doctor Who stuff even though he doesn’t like Doctor Who much (blasphemy I know!), he brings flowers home unexpectedly, he went with me when I got my tattoo even though he highly disapproved, and smiled and chatted with the artist…and a thousand other things. He makes it clear he loves me every day when he gives me a big smile when I come home. That is effort.
This is basically what I do…jerks are getting all the action, so play the jerk game. You can always be nice AFTER you lure them in with jerky behaviors.
I am not at all attracted to jerks. I am attracted to nice guys who are broken. I’m not sure why. I guess it’s a case of taking who I can get, but I’d rather be alone these days.
Exactly. If a man says that he’s a nice guy, he almost certainly is a Nice Guy, not a nice guy. If he’s a good, kind person, he doesn’t need to say it, it’s apparent in the way they act.
