Opengrave, I am a native Texan and I was taught to do all the things you mention. In fact, I wonder if my mother and grandmother didn’t have a hand in raising you.
I am a lot older than 31 and I still do those things and expect that I always will.
I teach at a private school, where the parents pay fees (here in England, we confusingly call it a Public School). The pupils call me Sir and hold doors open for all adults.
My sister teaches in a good state school, and gets nearly as much respect.
My Dad teaches in a deprived area of London, and the kids don’t seem generally to have such good manners.
I’m certainly not trying to insult anyone, but I wonder if having to struggle to pay the bills each month makes it more difficult to instill politeness in the family.
On the other hand, some of the richer parents at my school are really patronising.
Today when my friend and I were going outside, the guy who was sitting out there jumped up and allowed my friend to sit down (there were only two chairs). I mentioned how sweet that was, and how few people still do that. For me, the effort is certainly appreciated.
As far as opening doors goes, I’ve always believed that it is common courtesy to hold the door open for the next person, whether it be male or female. And I always remember to say thank you when someone holds the door open for me.
I consider myself respectful/helpful. I help out whenever I can to whomever I can.
Chivalry implies going out of your way to give special treatment. That can be insulting to some people.
I’ll hold the door open for anyone, male or female, and whether the door is push or pull. But, like Caldazar and Strainger, I have different procedures for men and women. For women, if the door is pull, I’ll open it first, and let them walk all the way through. For push, I’ll walk in first, then hold it open from the inside.
Now, if we’re walking to the door, and she happens to get in front of me when we get to the door, she’s most likely gonna open it before me (I haven’t come across a woman who will wait at the door so her date/friend could open it for her yet). In that case, I’ll digress and let her open it.
For men, I’ll hold it open so he can extend his arm out and grab it. Unless they’re in a wheel chair, using a walker, a cane, etc… Then, I’ll hold it open until they’re all the way through.
With car doors, I’ll always open the door first for dates (FWIW, I don’t expect her to open my door once she’s in, since the car has automatic locks). When it comes to female friends and acquaintances, I don’t open it first. I don’t want to them to think I’m coming onto them or anything. Basically, I want to keep things neutral.
Especially with the acquaintances, I don’t know if they’re feminists or what. I don’t want to be ragged on for thinking that she needed help opening the door.
I like it when gentlemen hold doors and help me with my chair. It shows that he respects me enough to make my life easier.
What really gets to me, though, is when I see people (men and women both) who hold the door for someone and receive no acknowledgement whatsoever. My mother raised me to believe that a lady always thanks a gentleman (or indeed another woman) for such courtesies.
Honestly, if no one gets any thanks when they go out of their way to hold the door or pull back a chair, it’s no wonder that these traditions of respect are dying out.
…wow. I’m dpr and didn’t even know it -or- “dpr, you put those words back in my mouth where you found them this instant…”
Opening doors, etc. used to be second nature. But nowadays, I usually get:
a) a glare, as in “damn right you’re opening the door for me.”
b) a look that implies: “oh, God, this guy thinks if he opens the door for me, I’ll go out with him…”
c) nothing, just continues to chatter to friend or gab on cellphone.
I don’t need to be acknowledged like I saved a life or anything, but if I have the decency to open the door, at least have the decency to say “thank you.”
Zenster, I like you more and more every time I see your words. The sig is not bad either…
I used to be hyper about this. I hated people who pulled the gentlemen act with me.
I guess I have relaxed since then. I can handle it well when I am dressed up, and such respect gives me only a bit of pause when I’m in jeans. I still hold my own quite well, thank you very much, but I’m getting more willing to let people show concern/care for me.
Perhaps I may be growing up. Or just getting lazy and stupid.
Here, here.
Well said.
Around here, men and women hold the door open for each other. I always say thank you and so does the person I’m doing it for.
Once I was on a double date and the men were so nice! They brought us flowers and a card, opened the doors, held out chairs and paid our way. I loved it and appreciated it but boy! The other girl was so rude to her date.
“How dare you give me flowers, you chauvinist pig!” “I’m capable of opening a door myself!” “Don’t you touch my chair!” “What- you think I can’t work because I’m a woman and therefore can’t pay my own way?”
Her poor date looked like he was afraid to breathe around her! Finally, I went in the ladies room with her and chewed her out. I was embarrassed by her actions and the men were not making a show of being nice, that’s just how they were. Then she yelled at me for not standing up for my rights.
She did calm down that night and wondered why her guy never called her after that night and mine did.
MaryAnnQ,
Your friend (is she actually your friend? I hope for your sake she’s just an acquaintance) is quite a bitch, isn’t she?
I open doors for plenty of people. I thank people who open doors for me. I don’t assume people have negative motives; I assume people are just being polite. Unless he leers and says “Let me get that for you so I can look at your ass, girlie girl.”
Y’know, I hold doors open for guys. I help them carry heavy stuff. I open the driver’s side door for them when I’m in the passenger’s seat. I’ve let guys go ahead of me in the checkout line if they had fewer items than I did. All that… and I’ve yet to have a guy accuse me of questioning his masculinity. It seems as though only women get riled up about these acts of “chivalry”.
MaryAnnQ tells of the behaviour of her ‘friend.’ It’s THIS sort of attitude that makes it difficult for us so-called nice guys (we hate that btw). So often we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. It creates uncertainty. I’ve been accused of demeaning an entire gender simply because I had the audacity to gasp - dear I admit it? - let a young girl on an elevator first.
That’s not only a very relevant point - and all too common - but also raises another question. Exactly how is she “standing up for her rights” by being rude? Unless the behaviour of the man is overly patronising, I can’t see how these small points of etiquette represent an attack on the rights of females the world over.
I do it (and getting back to the automatic swing) usually subconsciously and to perfect strangers. I’m not looking for anything in return (tho’ the smiles I DO get are worth more because of that) - just being me.
And you should hear about the trouble I have when I automatically go to the kerbside of the sidewalk whenever I’m with a girl… sigh Thanks for instilling that one in me Mum*.
- Mum: translation for Americans: Mom.
I have never really thought much about things which seem like common courtesy to me… opening doors, helping people who are overly laden or yielding a seat to those who seem to need it more than I.
However, I did spend a while arguing with myself about how to reconcile “gentlemanly manners” with equality when it comes to paying on a date.
After deliberation, I came to the following conclusion:
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In the “delicate” early stages of a relationship a modern gentleman offers to pay for both, is willing to pay for both but doesn’t insist on paying for both. If the lady asks to pay for the gentleman, he graciously and gratefully accepts.
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In a more stable relationship, some equitable arrangement should happen. Whether that is alternating treating, or dividing everything down the middle or whatever doesn’t really matter as long as it works for both. The exceptions are “special occasions”, such as a birthday, anniversary, Valentine’s Day or just when a gentleman wishes to remind a lady that she is most wonderful, amazing and beautiful woman he has ever known and that he is the luckiest son of an ameoba to crawl from the primordial soup just to gaze into her lovely eyes and see her smile.
Well, I’m not sure what was said in the Pit, and I hope this won’t bring any feelings of ill will towards me, but I am very chivalrous. I’m also always very polite. I was raised that way.
But I’m also very sincere about it. I don’t make a big deal out of holding doors, or pulling out chairs. It’s second nature, and I’m very friendly to everyone. I’m very easy going about being courteous. So ladies never seem to take offence to it. Pretty much all of them seem to take kindly to me being polite or courteous. I actually haven’t had a bad response yet.
If I don’t hold a door for the person behind me, I actually feel bad. Of course, I hold doors open for everyone, so I’m not sure if you would call it chivalry. But, I guess I do show a little more courtesy towards the ladies. Sorry, it’s just something I do.
This is a BIG topic, and if I tried to weigh in on the whole thing I’d post forever. Besides many, many fine comments have already been posted, so why cover the same ground?
But, I would like to address something Juniper et al brought up: thanking people for holding doors. First let me say, I ALWAYS hold doors for EVERYONE – women and men of all ages and (in)firmity; that means even people who are a few paces behind me who require me to stand and wait a few extra seconds for them to get to the door.
Few things infuriate me more than someone – anyone – who just marches past me and the door I’m holding and does not say thanks or nod or smile in acknowledgement. When they don’t, I have no qualms about saying, in a LOUD, sarcastic, icy voice behind them: “You’re welcome!” (Sometimes, but rarely, the person will catch their absentmindedness and turn back and say, “Sorry, and thanks for getting the door.” Then all is forgiven, and I melt into a sincere “No sweat.” Most of the time – I’m sorry to report – these apologizers are guys; the rude women just keep on walking in their own little self-centered world.)
The worst case happened a few years ago at a bank cash machine. The bank was closed, but they had one 24 hr. ATM that was accessable from the street through a swipe-card door. I got to the door, swiped my card and opened the door when it buzzed; by this time, a woman approached who also wanted to enter the ATM room. I held the door and she marched through (yes, with a thank you nod to me). But while I’m standing there like a jerk, she troops straight to the one and only ATM! So that’s the thanks I get for holding the door for her: she cuts in line in front of me! I swear you could have fried an egg on my brow.
When she was through and turned to go, I said to her in a calm, but stern tone, “You know, that wasn’t right. Just because I held the door doesn’t mean you can cut in front of me.” I wanted to make her feel very, very small and I hope I succeeded. The most she could muster was a sqeaky “sorry” as she squirmed away, but I know she got the point.
stuyguy, you reminded me of a recent event that (at the time) I was actually going to start a thread concerning. I hope this is not so much of a hi-jack. Here goes…
A month or so ago, my kids went to visit my mother in a different part of the state. When they came home, the eleven-year-old told me this story. Apparently, he and my mother, my sister and my other kids went together to a shopping mall. Said eleven-year-old, who is extremely tall for his age, immediately went ahead to open the door for everyone. (Yes, I did give him a kiss for remembering to do that)
As it so happened, a group of perhaps four young men (read: early teens) was following my family. My son just stayed put, and held the door for them. As they passed–yes, letting him hold the door for them–one of them said, “Thanks, Asshole.”
Of course, the others laughed heartily at this. My son was aghast. He was shocked and hurt. He told my mother, who looked for the boys, but they had taken off. Now, I am still very pissed about this. Mainly because he is my little boy and I could spit nails at anybody who’d call him a nasty name. But I’m kinda mad that my family didn’t really try to find those boys. Granted, they’re not worth the trouble…but I guess I just feel like they ought to know that things like that are not trivial and do not always go unnoticed. I know that someday they’ll say the wrong thing to the wrong person and get their collective butts kicked. That is some comfort.
But I had nothing but empty consolations for my son, who was earnestly wondering how he should have handled it. I told him he did the right thing. I told him he was a better person than retorting to that kind of thing (although I’m not, believe you-me).
Soooo. Enough rambling. What do you, as polite, intelligent people, suggest I say to a boy his trying to be a good person and do kind things for others and is only getting insulted for it? I’m running low on pep talk material…
thank you. sorry to hi-jack so blatantly. struuter
Struuter, if it’s any consolation, your story made my heart beat with rage. Why don’t people realize how hurtful these “small” indignities and injustices are? The world, incidentally, loves to forgive things based on age. “Just kids,” they say. I say, horseshit. I knew right from wrong when I was six.
With your sense of “what’s right” guiding him, I’m confident your kid will grow up unbruised by this encounter – but I bet he never forgets it, or the distress it caused him. I know that there are tiny, “forgotten” troubling incidents from my childhood, and beyond, that I have never forgotten, and probably never will. Maybe it’s a curse, but I like to think it’s a blessing in the long run.
Stuy, you are wonderful. Thank you so much for your kind words. I have so many memories of hearing other kids and sometimes adults saying really awful things that had so much more of an impact on me (read: natural tendancy toward the overdramatic), even though they had probably forgotten they’d said it before it was out of their mouths.
Can I tell you the real stinger? It almost hurts to write this, really. But when I was talking to my son about this and how I hoped he’d remember not to give in to even the smallest temptation to insult, do you know what he said? God…he said that what bothered him the most was that grown-ups who met up with these kids might judge all kids unfairly because of their attitudes and behavior.
I had to explain that most people tried to judge on an individual basis (what will I say when he learns this is not always true?). I tried to tell him that jerks are pretty obvious–that being one of their redeeming qualities.
Well, enough of my ranting. Apologies to all. Thanks again, stuy.
Now that I’ve got the steam wiped off of my monitor, let me tell you something struuter. Tell your son to say, “You’re welcome”. Leadership by example is the best way to put such fuckwits in their place. The lesson will serve your child throughout his life. In addition, he will be in the right often enough to finally catch on to when it’s ok to say, "Cram it with walnuts jerkface!"