As per the original scenario, what is unclear about “no, and please stop asking.” Persisting past the point of any ambiguity is extremely obnoxious I don’t care if you’re the love child of Brad Pitt & George Clooney.
But you seem to be assuming that every random woman on the street is available. I can safely say that if I’m happily married, happily engaged, gay or just not into dating then annoyance is going to be the best outcome that some random guy trying to hit on me is going to get.
But the poor zhlub hitting on you has no way of knowing that you’re not just being reserved but secretly flirtatious when you respond to his “Hi, there!” by walking on without a word. Granted, I wouldn’t do it (hell, I wouldn’t talk to a strange women, period) but there are women who would like to flirt but who put up an initial barrier at first. He’s being slightly annoying, I admit freely, but as long as there are women who eventually (a few seconds? A few exchanges? A few blocks?) encourage guys to be persistent, then are the nicer, funnier, wittier persistent guys all total creeps and swine and assholes? Does talking to a strange women classify a guy as such? Does persisting for a few seocnd or a few exchanges classify one as a creep? Has any Doper women ever met the love of her life after an initial exchange that was far less than encouraging?
Before responding, ladies, please remember: I’m just asking. I almost never talk to strange women (way too shy), am happily in a LTR that’s strictly monogamous, and have no dog in this fight at all (I have in fact two very pretty daughters, 18 and 22, and don’t want any guy not introduced to them by me after a careful screening even saying “Hi” to either of them.)
The same way a homeless person knows you probably can’t be pestered into giving them money? Walking on by isn’t some sort of impossible-to-decode subtle womanly cue. It’s pretty clear. As is the difference between giving one word answers and looking away in line at the coffee shop rather than engaging in conversation (not that the latter means she’s anything except maybe friendly).
It must be even harder if you’re a gay male. How to know that every guy you talk to (and you’ll have to talk to a lot, what with the whole 10 percent thing) isn’t just coy or closeted? Better keep hitting on random strangers. Only, if you’re male, that’s not the norm. You have some expectation of privacy and respect in public. You’re shopping with your wife, you’re on the phone with a client, you’re at an important business lunch– not the times you want to be approached about your relationship status, right? But I’ve been hit on by men in (very similar) situations.
Is this a joke? Someone who cannot decode this oh-so-subtle rejection is so socially inept as to be an utterly unsuitable partner. As in, patently undateable for not exhibiting even the SMALLEST interest in or regard for the wishes of the person he’s pursuing. Which is creepy. It’s all about responding appropriately to social cues.
How on earth could that be mistaken for anything else but a snub? The scenario you painted in the OP was pretty clear, but you seem to be adding a lot of “what ifs” now and insisting we don’t get what you’re asking when it seems like what you’re asking is changing subtly when we give you a particular answer.
Feel free to correct me if I’m misunderstanding you (as stridently as you wish), but first you started out with handsome man vs. troll, both persistently hitting on a woman. Does the woman treat both men equally or are her actions based on looks? Pretty cut and dried. But now it’s handsome man vs. troll - does the woman treat both equally, what about if the men are clueless, why do the women say no when they mean yes and why do the women like cuter men? This second scenario makes a couple of assumptions that weren’t there originally: women only like cute men, either aren’t clear on what they want or can be persuaded otherwise.
For what it’s worth, I thought your OP was very, very clear, but it’s become less so as you add the qualifiers. You’ve started with a generalization and added your own “what ifs,” seemingly based on the women you work with who sound like narcissistic braggarts at worst and women having a regular bitch session at best.
From the “Troll, Average, Model” thread:
OK, this is where I stop being polite.
I have never been rude or hostile to a guy because he made a single (socially appropriate) expression of interest (the gropey or vulgar guys yes, but they deserved it), nor have I personally witnessed such behavior from my female friends. I have, however, been rude and hostile to men (and seen others do so) AFTER they have ignored “polite rejection”, “polite but firm rejection”, and “barely civil point-blank rejection”.
If you are determined to make a nuisance of yourself, you are going to be treated like a nuisance. What do you find so offensive about that idea? Why should women be obliged to be endlessly nice to men who are being obnoxiously pushy? Once I’ve said NO, repeatedly, and you’ve ignored me, repeatedly, I no longer have to be polite to you.
JRB
Yeah, and we call those people creeps, jerks, and stalkers.
I never understand guys who think that just because one woman out of 100,000 play the hard-to-get game, that justifies badgering the 99,000 who do not. Believe it or not, most time “no” means “no”. It doesn’t mean “no…but if you ask me 100 more times I may say yes”.
If saying “No, and please stop asking” isn’t clear, I don’t really know how I can be any clearer.
You asked women to give their perspectives honestly. I gave you mine.
Yes, if I have told somebody clearly that I am not interested in them, I do expect them to “go along with my program” by not continuing to hit on me. Is this really incredibly unreasonable?
Yes, this. I am not available, I’m not interested in dating anyone, and it’s really not likely I’m going to change my mind about that. I’m sorry if I made that unclear by throwing in “probably”; I should have left it out.
Man, that one bitch (or those 1,000 bitches–I’m not following your creative subtraction there) is really ruining life for you, isn’t she? If it weren’t for her, that selfish cunt, everything would be so simple, wouldn’t it?
I’ve started a separate thread, soliticiting stories of open, clear, plain rejecting behavior that eventually blossomed into a relationship. Let’s see what happens there. So far, not much.
Someone proposed this before, a while back in another thread, and I liked it at the time so I’ll repeat it. If you’re so confused or turned off by women who play games and say ‘No’ when they mean ‘Yes,’ call their bluff. Take them at their word. You could very well be doing them a favor by no longer badgering them. Or you’ve saved yourself some drama with someone who doesn’t communicate in a way that is clear to you.
The problem isn’t her, it’s the idiot who turns himself into nuisance just to score a date with her.
Is this really so hard to understand that you have to feign ignorance from my math?
Yeah, but if she’d get with the program, you’d have an absolute statement to argue with me. Let’s see how many Dopers come forth in the other thread–maybe it’s closer to 1,000 Dopers than a fraction of one.
That really was a mathematical error? I was teasing you about what I took for a typo.
Okay, so what you’re saying is that because some girls like persistence and some guys suck at social cues, if a girl walks away with a look on her face like she’s seen a rotting dead dog, you should try harder? Good luck with that.
Are you sure you have no dog in this? Because I’m wondering why I’m supposed to be arguing with you at all. Unless you’re the kind of creepface idiot who badgers women for dates because 1 out of 100,000 might finally break down after you harass her 100 times and say yes, then you have nothing to be defensive about. But oddly it seems like this isn’t the case.
When I post in a rushed manner (as I’m wont to do when I’m busy with other things), I make all kind of mistakes. Grammar, math, spelling. What’s so surprising about that? I gotta wonder why you’re being so literal with something that was so clearly not to be taken literally, but okay. You go boy.
Whatever. I’d Pit you, but we’re not on the same plane of existence. I just wish soooomeday oooone day, a hunk you’re slobbering on gives you the treatment you reserve to “trolls”. You know, out of Kharmenfreude.
Which you got.
Let me get this straight. I answered your question with consideration, explained why I thought the question was flawed, and did my best to do so in neutral, unthreatening terms.
In return, you suggest that I may find it hard to be honest, find telling the truth discomfiting, or would prefer to be soothed instead of participate in adult conversation.
Did you intend to be that insulting? Because if you did, I’d be happy to see you in the Pit, keyboards drawn. I even have a thread title in mind. If you didn’t, I suggest you muster a worthwhile apology.
I sincerely suggest you print out the above quoted response and take it to a therapist, right away. In this quote, and other places in this thread, you are feeling sorry for these poor, poor men who are just trying to optimistic and persistent and how these poor fellas don’t always able to pick up cues.
You even go so far as to allude to the idea that we don’t know what we’re talking about when it comes to our own responses. This, once again, proves that you started this clusterfuck of a thread with a specific outcome in mind. No matter how many women come in and tell you that it is ANNOYING to have a man you are not interested in repeatedly bother you, you keep throwing out your worthless “What if!?” and pretty much act as if we don’t really know what we think and want. Hmm, just like the jerk in your OP.
And Jesus-jumped-up-Christ you even say that we expect the guy to “instantly go along” with our program when we say no? THAT is the creepiest thing I’ve read in a long time. Why on earth do women need to say “No” and then justify their reasons, or worse yet… be badgered and have men think it wrong that they have to go along with our “program”? NO MAN has a right to get angry if I say no to his request to get to know me better. No woman is obligated to even return his greeting, let alone go out with him. I don’t think you even realize how offensive this idea is. You’re suggesting that it’s unfair that women make the decision and the men have to go along with it. Do you also think it is wrong when a man gets told “No” by his date when he wants to have sex? Is it wrong that he has to go along with her program?
Look how many women have told you that they would find the guy in the OP (and in all of your “what if” edits) irritating and you still come back trying to twist and cajole and try to get us to say the opposite. You claim you’re too shy to be the guy in the OP, but you’re doing a damn good job of being as irritating here in this thread. I hope you stay in your LTR for a long, long time. Like, seriously long.
Did not mean to give offense, and was not specifically questioning your honesty or anything else–just tossing around some possiblities. If they don’t apply to you, so much the better. We can explore further what’s going on here–some of it’s murky, sensitive, and misunderstood, especially by me.
Pit me if you must, or if you doubt my sincerity in claiming that I’m mostly on your side, personally, but am expressing some remaining confusion about exactly what you’re saying and your reasons for saying it.
Yes, you did question my honesty. When you say “you may find it hard to be honest”, you are questioning my honesty. Specifically, you imply that I am either a weakling who can’t put out the effort necessary to be honest or that I am as pathologically incapable of speaking truthfully as a diabetic is of producing adequate insulin.
Bullshit. You were deflecting my answer by attacking my character.
Bullshit of the passive-aggressive variety. If you didn’t believe they applied to me, you wouldn’t have used them to respond to me.
Oh, may we?
If I must? No, if I choose. You see, as an adult, I understand that my considered actions are a result of decisions that I make. Not just something that happens.
Bwahahahahahahahaha! Oh, stop! Please! My sides are killing me.
prr, you’re not on my side. Not mostly, not even partly. You’re not sincere, either. If you’d been sincere, you would have started a thread about the two trollops in your office who have the gall to whine about being hit on more than once when they admittedly went out with men who asked them out more than once.
You didn’t come here to understand another point of view. You came here to get your head patted and be told that yes, women are all shallow, hypocritical creatures who don’t know what’s good for them.
Hey, good for you, but that’s completely irrelevant. For you see, just as not-being-in-a-relationship doesn’t mean that you’re a loser, being-in-a-relationship doesn’t mean that you’re a winner.
You have a dog in this fight. Maybe you bear the scars of previous encounters, maybe you see it going on all around you and figure if you weren’t in a relationship figure you’d take the worst of it, maybe you’re madly in love with one of the trollops and are designing a plan of action for when you’re single next.
Doesn’t matter. You are so emotionally invested in this, you can’t bring yourself to consider the points of view you’ve been given. You dressed up your question as a hypothetical, moved the goal every time you felt threatened, and insulted the very people who were trying to help you out.
Also, you suck at apologies.
Now, I’m going to go eat a healthy lunch, find my thesaurus, and start that Pit thread. I’ll post the link when I’m done.