Now that is funny. Thanks for pointing that out. I wish I could say I did it on purpose. I must have Freudian fingers.
Night again. For real.
The two situations can’t be compared.
If I turn down a guy who I like and am attracted to because of some bizarre notion of “being a lady”, then I do it in a way that doesn’t burn the bridge, so he knows that I am flattered by his attention and perhaps can be persuaded to change my mind in time. When we meet again, my manner toward Guy-I-Find-Attractive will be more open and encouraging.
If I turn down a guy I’m not attracted to then I do it with a finality that he ought to be able to recognise. Then the way I act around him when we meet up again will also be intended to dissuade further pursuit. There’s no way Guy-I-Find-Unattractive should be able to mistake my intentions (or lack thereof), and ought to know he is not being encouraged.
It’s creepy to persist in asking someone out when they aren’t just saying “No” with their mouths but are also sending “No” signals with their body language, interaction and conversation. Guy-I-Find-Attractive is only getting the verbal No, Guy-I-Find-Unattractive is getting all the No signals I can muster, and therein the difference lies. Anyone who has been around other humans long enough to be dating ought to be able to tell the difference. People who are described as creepy are people who make other people uncomfortable, usually because of their inability to read signals that people expect others to find crystal clear.
Nor defined in any way, apparently. You don’t seem to want (or be able ) to specify ways you might turn one guy down that are so crystal-clear that anyone with half a brain “ought to be able to recognise” your sharp and clear message, nor to distinguish them from your inviting and welcoming rejection of someone else whom you want to be asking you out repeatedly for weeks on end.
Not that I blame you, or could be very much clearer myself, but my point is that what’s clear to you may be less clear to someone who thinks of himself as a suitable suitor. It can be very hard to tell “playing hard to get” or even “flirting” from “chilly and bare civility” for some guys, I’m sure. These guys may be deluded, granted, but so may that handsome guy whom you’re desparately hoping comes back for a second try. You do tend to treat the two men very differently–and I’m talking about in your perceptions now. One’s a loathsome creep, the other’s a delectable morsel, yet they both behave the same exact way.
Seriously? The hypothetical woman in the OP’s related situation shouldn’t blow off stress by complaining with friends about some asshole she keeps crossing paths with who just won’t take no for an answer, but instead march up to the police station and cry about how this awful, awful cad keeps… asking her on dates? Because her only motivation for otherwise speaking of it would be her enormous ego? Sharing experiences like that is a bonding experience for some women; it’s not always my cup of tea, but surely you’re familiar with the “don’t give me advice, empathize with me!” style of communication.
This.
And this. Sorry, I thought I made it clear in the parenthetical of my original statement - if a troll thinks I’m attainable, he must not think I’m that attractive. As others have pointed out, people generally go for others of a similar level of attractiveness. So when Quasimodo hits on me, it’s kind of a WTF moment.
If having standards and not lusting after every last person I lay eyes on makes me a shallow narcissist, so be it.
Shrug, maybe we’re having a completely Venus-Mars conversation. To me the story was an example of how someone completely “pretty” can be totally off-putting while behaving in a theoretically correct way, and of the fact that to me behavior is more important than physical measurements, while not being completely irrelevant.
He didn’t grope me, call me sweetcunt or whisper in my ear that what I need to solve all my problems is a handspan of sausage, but all the cute in the world wouldn’t have made him less repulsive to me. The mileage of other women, as evidenced by my story, varied.
I’m wondering whether you really need things explained this slowly or just suffer from a case of “nobody is more blind than he who won’t open his eyes.”
Oh, and I learned at age 19 that you don’t say no on grounds of “being a lady.” Where I come from, yes means yes and no means no, so playing coy just doesn’t work.
Shame you aren’t just a touch sharper then, dear.
Hey, rigorous honesty was asked for, and I’ve given it. IMO, having sufficient self-regard as to believe that not everyone is equally entitled to get in my pants is a good thing.
You might have noticed, if you weren’t so busy being offended, that I didn’t say “some poor soul less genetically blessed than I”, I said “a middle aged man with a ponytail and skull-patterned gym pants”. These things are not exactly alike. A well groomed guy who looks like Wallace Shawn has a way better shot than the above-mentioned troll, even if said troll were sporting Clooneyface.
I didn’t try, nor do I intend to attempt to in a text-only medium where my words will be picked apart, over-analysed and taken without the context of tone, expression and body language. And I can’t actually imagine myself being in a situation where I’d reject someone I really wanted to get to know for weeks on end before finally allowing myself to be convinced to go on a date with him, but that’s the scenario in the OP.
What makes him the loathesome creep is his inability to read social cues. Don’t say his inability to tell a cold shoulder from playing hard-to-get should be taken into account before he’s judged “creepy” - that’s the very thing that makes him creepy. It’s not ugly guy vs. handsome guy, it’s creepy guy vs. non-creepy guy, and the creepy guy is creepy because he didn’t get that you meant no when you said it.
And second guy isn’t handsome, he’s attractive. The two are not always the same, just as the unattractive guy isn’t always ugly. There are qualities that trump both handsomeness and ugliness.
I think I can honestly say that I find this behavior off-putting regardless of how the guy looks.
It’s very self-centered. Here I am, I’m not at a singles bar and not browsing on match.com…I just want a cup of coffee or a quart of milk or whatever. Then you come along…not knowing if I’m single or married or gay or just totally into getting a quart of milk, not a date…and when I react negatively IT"S ALL ABOUT YOU…and how YOU look and what YOU could’ve done differently to make me want you…maybe this woman is happily married or something, but suddenly she’s being shallow because she won’t run off for lunch with some ordinary fat guy. I really don’t get it.
I remember some guy walking up to me on the street in front of my house and asking me out and getting all indignant when I refused…this happened about 2 weeks after my boyfriend had DIED.
He seemed properly chastened when I told him this but I was really annoyed that I had been coerced into sharing this pain with a stranger.
By the way, this guy was gorgeous if you are into the swarthy Greek God type which may have been why he had such an expectation of success.
And when you keep pushing the same stranger for a date, it IS creepy because she doesn’t know you from whomever and she’s just not into you and you’re somehow acting as if the world will end if she walks out of your life…it makes any woman who has ever been stalked by some guy she made the mistake of being nice to nervous.
Just like men, not all women are created equal. I get what you are talking about pseudotriton ruber ruber, but you seem unwilling to accept that some of us are truly being honest when we give you the answer that you are not looking for. For these ladies you work with, it seems that it might be the case that they are not affording the same good manners to men of varying levels of attractiveness, based only on the information we have. But not all women are like this. I don’t even know if I could accurately tell you how many women are. I can think of many occasions when a very handsome guy hit on me and I was not interested. Sometimes it was because he had poor manners, or just was a jerk, or I didn’t have anything in common with him, or whatever. And I can think of a lot of times when a guy who was not very physically attractive asked me out and I was interested, because he was charming, or I did have some similar interests, or whatever. Like others have said, it’s chemistry. And anybody who is overly-persistent is off-putting. Being friednly is fine, but continued asking after being told no is not.
But I’m being persistent as hell here, aren’t I? I’m badgering you for clarity, for refining your terms, for giving me further details? And you’re still finding me totally charming, aren’t you?
Lol. Alright, maybe you have me there. I wouldn’t say totally charming, but I wouldn’t label you a total “creep.” Or whatever alternate term we choose to substitute for creep.
This is my opinion. And I might be in the minority here, but it sounds like the women you work with may be blowing something out of proportion or they’re deliberately misunderstanding the guys’ intentions to stroke their own egos. As in, most people I’ve met who ask me out repeatedly are people I know or run into frequently, like the guy who works at the coffee shop I frequent. Every time I go in there, he says, “Overly, when are you going to make me a happy man and run away with me?” I usually laugh and say something along the lines of, “Hey, I’ve got a man. Why do I need two?” His response is usually, “Okay, so how about a date? C’mon - anywhere you want to go.” A few more lines of harmless banter, he hands me my coffee and I’m on my way. It’s totally non-confrontational and entertaining. Now, if I were a bragging sort of woman, I could go to work and say, “Oh, God. There’s this guy who works at the coffee shop - can you believe it? - and he keeps freaking asking me out every damn time I walk in there. I mean, all I want is a freaking cup of coffee! Why can’t he just leave me alone? I know I’m attractive, but puhleez.”
Still, for all I know, these guys are really invading these girls’ personal space or too clueless to take no for an answer (or stop kidding around if that’s what they’re doing). If the girls feel that their personal space is being invaded or the guys are too clueless or arrogant to take no for an answer, I don’t see why they wouldn’t have the right to complain. Police don’t generally arrest people for being creepy or jackasses. On the other hand, if the guys are just kidding around or these women are bragging, the women in your office need to chill out a little or learn to tune them out.
Regardless of what’s happening with the women that sparked your OP, I still think that, all attractiveness being equal (i.e., hot guy vs. ugly guy, both well kempt, non-smelly and reasonably responsible), body language and approach is a lot more significant than looks. To me, anyway.
Hmm, what do you look like?
But yeah, as others have mentioned, it sounds like you just overheard a lady bull session.
Silly man, that’s what money is for!
Kidding.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
I think this statement is what confuses a lot of guys (and likely girls as well…not to be one-sided), especially thiose who might read some (or most) of the dating advice threads around here and try to take them to heart. It gets said all the time that looks are lesser to personality, humor, etc, when in real life (as opposed to doper-land) this is the case far more often than most people would admit (maybe even to themselves) and what the OP is trying to get at in a roundabout, pseudo-scientific way…
It’s perfectly possible to be both hot and creepy. If I’ve already said no to this person twice, then presumably I am not attracted to them (or I have another good reason for refusing; I’m married, or celibate, or getting over a horrible breakup, or whatever). Continuing to pester me when I’m clearly not interested is, in all probability, going to be annoying at best and extremely creepy at worst; whether this person is someone who’d be generally considered attractive doesn’t really make much difference if I’m not personally attracted to them, surely?
Lot of qualifications here, and an inaccuracy.
“Clearly not interested”? Well, it’s going to be very clear to you, sure, but some people don’t pick on cues (and some people send out mixed cues), or engage in hopeful thinking when it’s slightly unrealistic to keep hope alive–I don;t know how optimism is necessarily “creepy,” even if it doesn’t quite fit with your program or your plans. (To say nothing of “continuing to pester you” for someone who may think, incorrectly, that he’s showing you that he feels strongly about his interest in you, so strongly that he hopes you’ll try a little harder to understand what he’s offering you. To you, of course, he’s offering a pile of lukewarm diarrhea, but not everyone is willing to look at himself from your perspective instantly. He may think he’s a good catch, and wants you to think well of him, too.
But the big problem here is your best case scenario, which is similarly restricting the perspectives to your own: “in all probability, going to be annoying at best”–really? The best thing that could possibly happen is (with your own quaification “in all probability”) is that you’ll be annoyed? How about the perhaps less probable but still possible outcome that you WON’T be annoyed? Ever think of that? That maybe you’ll be charmed? Won over? Change your mind? Guess not, but you expect the guy to instantly go along with your program, and cease and desist because–no woman’s ever changed her mind in the history of the world?
Who was it that said on these boards something to the effect of: “You’re asking women about other women? This is bound to end in disaster.”
