Why the hate? If you’re a fan of trolls, that’s just more for you!
Yes, this is important. Being known as “creepy” for a guy in this age is like a woman being known as a “harlot” in the Victorian era. First of all, all it takes in the accusation to make it true. It’s also not specific, so people can read whatever they want into it. Does creepy mean that a guy gets a little too close when he says, “Hi” without meaning it? Or does it mean he is someone who will rape you if given the chance? This is why guys are paranoid as heck about the idea that they will be seen as coming off too strong towards women (let alone towards children, with whom many, especially older, men simply refuse to interact). This is one of the few things I see eye-to-eye with Der Trihs on.
By the way, I have never been accused of being “creepy”, so this is not from personal experience. I am, though, like Autolycus and probably most guys, forced to be concerned about appearing “uncreepy”. For example, I posted my picture in a “Post your face” thread on another forum and someone (a guy, and not an attractive one at that) commented that my smile was a little “creepy” without meaning it seriously. I was surprised how much that offended me, and it would have been much worse in person.
Also, people I know have started using the term “creeper” instead of “creep”, especially in the lighter sense. I don’t think this was intentionally designed to be so, but it is interesting.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
While it sounds bad, realistically, people don’t tend to go after people “out of their league”, whether it be too high above them or too low under them. Neither person usually feels comfortable in that sort of situation. So in this case you not only have an unattractive person pursuing you but one who is also seemingly a little “off” in thinking that you two would make a good couple. Think about it: if your favorite supermodel met you and started flirting with you and making advances, that would make you uncomfortable, right?
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
ETA: Fortunately though, most people are within the same general area of attractiveness and can be made up to look pretty good. Think about what Brad Pitt would look like in the getup DianaG described. Think about any makeover show you’ve ever seen. Usually the person who comes out on the other end is fairly attractive.
For me, and I may be the only one, there’s a full stop after this sentence.
To me, women complaining about unwanted attention are doing the equivalent of female bragging. If someone is stalking them, they should call the police. Short of that, there’s no reason to talk to other women about it. So whether it’s a good-looking guy or a creepy guy or any guy whatsoever hardly counts. . . there’s no pattern. Those women are bragging about whatever came their way that they didn’t want.
Yes, it’s like a frat boy saying how ugly the woman he woke up with after the party was and how fast he got out of there. It’s saying that he’s able to pick and choose who he accepts; he’s not just scraping whatever he can get off the bottom (at least in his mind).
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
Bingo. H&R wins the thread. The two ladies in my office were boasting to each other yesterday (well, the day before, by now) of some lovin’ they chose to walk away from, and contempt and offendedness was the mode chosen for this conversation. Thanks for the insight, as ever.
This is also on the money, seems to me, because there’s some classism here, I suspect. Both these ladies have advanced degrees, and all of the guys they were contemptuous of were working joes. IOW, blue-collar hottie= “Gots to get me some of that!” blue-collar nottie= “Who does that ugly clown think he is, anyway? Ha, ha.”
Sleeps with Butterflies, thanks for playing and all, but no, I didn’t have a specific answer in mind, just clearing the path of bullshit I expected (and some of which I got) here, of “Oh, heavens, why would you ever expect I care a twig about appearance? For me, it’s all about love of long walks on the beach and a charming sense of humor and that certain indefinable something known as je ne sais quoi…” Girl, please, spare me, it’s all about attractiveness and money plus that other stuff. Like you’re looking to date an ugly cashier? (to paraphrase a line from THE FRONT.) I’m mostly fascinated, though, by the contempt expressed here (and explained by H&R above) of women claiming that there’s some sort of label we all wear: “I am a Class-C woman, please don’t bother even talking to me unless you are a Class-E man or better. If you are an A, I reserve to the right to be suspicious of your motive, but I will consider your application. Below G, I will call the police.” How does a guy know until he tries? I mean, if you’re all going on about how you want a sense of humor and don’t care at all about looks or money, why should a guy get “Who does that clown think he is?” for asking? Plainly, they do get that reaction.
But a guy should have a rough idea of how appealing he is to women, and the idea of approaching a “Class C” woman if he is “Class G” should be as weird to him as it would be to the woman. If it is not, then he is not acting normally, which is unsettling.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
Robert Browning, (line 97 from Andrea del Sarto, 1855)
Well, problem number one is that you’re taking what some women say about not caring about looks or money and trying to fit that on all women. Personally, the only thing I care about as far as money is that he’s responsible with his and doesn’t expect me to provide money to him. I make my own money and have no debt besides my mortgage, so I won’t be asking him for money nor do I expect to be “treated” all the time.
As far as looks, you bet I care about that. I try my best to take good care of myself, and I don’t want to date someone who doesn’t want to keep themselves healthy. Plus, why would I want to be with someone I don’t find attractive? I wouldn’t. Naturally there are personality traits that I look for, but that won’t do either one of us any good if he has all the personality traits and I’m not physically attracted to him.
I guess I don’t understand the point of this exercise unless you believed women to be so much different than men. Most men are not going to want to go out with women they find unattractive, why would anyone assume women to be different? A guy isn’t going to want some unattractive woman following him around and flirting with him, neither will most women. This is pretty much a human thing, not a gender thing.
Did I need a point beyond trying to figure out exactly why my co-workers were being so unkind in discussing the men who tried dating them? I’ve had women express interest in me, and while I found some of them unattractive or uninteresting, I would never turn a fire-hose of derision on them for thinking I might return their interest. And if I felt that derision (which I don’t) I don’t think I’d want to display my contempt to someone else, much less enjoy expressing that contempt.
People are different, just because you wouldn’t do it, doesn’t mean others don’t. It just seems like this is being made into a gender thing. Yes, you said in your OP that you believe men don’t have unwanted attention, but I’ve heard men say similar things to the ideas that your co-workers are expressing.
I’m honestly curious why you believe women to be so different. Yes, women often say they like a guy with a sense of humor but it doesn’t mean she wants an ugly guy with a sense of humor.
Also, the firehose got turned up big-time when these guys persisted in asking after being shot down once. As I said, I found that odd, since these women didn’t seem to notice that they HAD willingly dated men whom they had turned down for a date. I understand that there are two signals you could be sending (“No–and drop dead” and “No–but please ask me again”) but I don’t get why it’s so subtle a concept that the distinction between the two responses might be much clearer to you inside your mind than to the man hearing either response.
I guess it’s personal experience there. I’ve been in a many a bull-session with guys talking about women, and I’ve never heard quite that aggrieved tone of “Honestly, do I need to call the police?” that I was hearing from my co-workers.
Guys who are getting unwanted attention from women will give you “I don’t think I’m quite THAT horny yet” but never in my experience “Who the hell does she think she is?”
My definition of “looks” may not be your definition of “looks.”
Case in hand:
A few jobs back, I rejoined my group (after being on loan to a different one) in the middle of Integration Testing. The people doing the testing were from the factories we were working for; Ron introduced me to each group in turn.
We went back to the office where Diana and Meg were working, and these asked “well, what did you think about the Italian?”
Me: “which Italian? I’ve just met eight Italians.”
Them: “You KNOW which Italian! Luca!”
Me: “well, I think he’s a complete asshole and will give it to us up the ass and without lube at every chance he gets, why?”
Them: :eek::eek::eek:
Diana burst laughing, Meg’s jaw fell to the floor and Ron asked “you didn’t think he was good looking?”
Me: “oh, yes, model-cute, but he’s an ass too and he’s more of an ass than he’s cute.”
Diana: “but how did you know?”
Me: (description of the guy’s defensive posture, sarcastic tone of voice and head-to-toe ‘made me feel like a cow about to be butchered’ look)
Diana collected 10$ from Meg saying “I’d bet that you’d take less time than we did to notice he’s a total ass, but never would have thought you’d notice it at first sight, girl…”
Whether a guy comes across as “nice” or “creepy” is in the attitude, the body language, not in whether he looks like Keanu Reeves’ cute brother or like Keanu Reeves’ dog. Whether the guy is washed and dressed, how he moves, how he looks at me and at others, what he does with his hands… are about a million times more important than whether he’s cute. Does that mean that I’ll bed any guy who’s charming enough? No, and being the granddaughter of a snake charmer I can smell one from the other side of town. But “cute” is something I care about in my decorations, not my men.
I am curious. Do you think one of those situations are better than the other?
Because I would rather have a guy think about calling the police on me than have him tell his bull-session buddies he wasn’t “THAT horny yet” when referring to me!
And really…to me those things both read very much the same. Saying you aren’t THAT horny about someone, and saying who the hell do they think they are, implies that you think they are beneath you in both cases doesn’t it?
Yet another totally off-point response. Ladies, I’m leaving it entirely up to you to define “attractive” and “not attractive.” I’m just talking about your different reactions to those YOU have defined as such.
Again, the two hypothetical gentlemen in the OP are identical in terms of attitude, body language, etc. My jaw is fully dropped by the difficulty in understanding this simple idea.
I’m fully aware of that. It’s her tone and choice of words. The woman sounds deeply in love with herself, a hot air balloon in serious need of a pin.
Believe it or not, it happened to me once.
Well, OK, maybe not a supermodel, but a girl quite well out of my shy unkempt geeky league, who made advances a mile from subtle. My first reaction was somewhat paranoid, followed by confusion once I felt confident that no, there really was no sick prank going on. I wondered why the fuck she was talking to me right up to the point when her hair hit my pillow. Then the wondering, it went away somehow 
To me, the implication of “not quite THAT horny yet” is that you might be tomorrow, and you were last week. I hear that as essentially sympathetic to the woman hitting on an uninterested man. “Who the hell does he think he is?” implies “We’re different species–a woman like me would never give a guy like him a tumble–why is he so blind as to not to understand that simple but sad fact of life, the pathetic loser?”
Clearer?
Yes. Loud and clear.
But, sympathetic? Giving the woman a pity screw, when you know damn well you aren’t attracted to her? How is that more sympathetic to her. And do you tell your fiends later too? How would that conversation go?
Also, I am sure there are some women who would say stuff like you have mentioned. But in all my days I have met very few women like that. And I spent 2 years in an all girls dorm and saw just about every dating scenario possible. I myself wouldn’t think a guy is a loser for wanting to spend time with me. Actually he would have pretty good taste if you ask me.
But if I didn’t think we clicked, and he kept being persistent, I might get a bit annoyed. But never annoyed enough to screw him later…just because I am so sympathetic. :rolleyes:
I think most of the posters here did understand your scenario, and were just illustrating their points. Ya Ya we know…all things equal, but the looks. We get it.
But even if that were possible, and the rest of your scenario played out, most of us said we wouldn’t let the looks sway us much, if at all. I admitted that the better looking guy might get a few more minutes, but if he said the exact same things, in the same manner, accent, tone of voice, volume, wearing the same clothes etc. etc. I would still not like it if he were persistent after I turned him down more than once.
You don’t have to answer my questions BTW.
Night. 
Freudian much?