Ladies, let’s be honest

In My Humble Opinion
41

I’m glad you posted this. For me, understanding your motivation for asking helps. Do you have any idea how long these women had known the guys who keep asking them out? I ask because I’ve had a few acqaintances deliberately lead on guys, only to shoot them down numerous times. Why they did it, I have no idea - maybe validation, stupidity or a combination. However, I think it would be understandably creepy for any woman to be a little freaked out over having a guy - any guy - she’s known for only 15 seconds ask her out, regardless of how he looks.

Either way, I agree with you that it is contradictory to say yes to someone after saying no for a while. If the guy has a chance, you could at least meet him for coffee or a walk or ask if you can call him. What is that - some kind of test? That’s just silly. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

42

I’d just be guessing. My guess would be a matter of weeks, maybe a few months. They were mostly talking about guys at work or around work (I work in a large university)–one of the guys works for food services, another guy works in the local music store, I think. They could have been putting on some faux-outrage for each others’ benefit, and mine, but there seemed to be a genuine outrage in there as well.

43

I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion so fast. “General vibe” (to me at least) has to do with a lot of subtle things. Body language, demeanor, clothing, something in the eyes…y’know ? That * je ne sais quoi* that feels… wrong. I’ve had it with otherwise stunning girls myself.

Yes, the studio edited out a lot of things for the TV version. Oh waid, Ted, not Al :stuck_out_tongue:

44

This all reminds me of the Tom Brady SNL sketch with the faux sexual harassment lesson. It boiled down to:
Be Handsome.
Be Attractive.
Don’t Be Unattractive.
Funny and occasionally true. Yes, some guys are so physically attractive they can get away with murder (occasionally literally). Yes, many women react differently to a guy depending on his physical appearance. So do men, I imagine. All depending on their definition of attractive, I suppose.

45

In my experience, though, the creepiest pick ups would’ve been creepy no matter who was saying them.

46

Honestly, it would depend a lot on what a guy was saying flirtatiously to me. Like, when a guy on the el told me that my eyes were an amazing color, I just said “thanks” and went back to my book. That was just creepy, it doesn’t matter what a guy looks like.

OTOH, I felt better-disposed towards a guy in a bar recently who complimented me on my coelacanth t-shirt. If he had actually known what a coelacanth was, I would have been more interested in talking to him. Maybe I’m attracted to him, maybe I’m not, but even if I’m not and he’s a cool guy who’s interested in coelacanths (and really, who isn’t?), we might end up friends.

47

pseudotriton, sweetie, you may have shot yourself in the foot a bit by setting up a situation in the OP (ie, persistent total stranger) that a lot of women would find automatically creepy (as evinced by responses to date).

As far as the question you were trying to ask, my answer is that for 99.9% of the population sheer physical attractiveness has no measurable effect on when sorry, not interested becomes get the hell away from me! As several women have already posted here, creepy cute guys are just as creepy as creepy ugly guys. A guy who was really spectacularly, amazingly gorgeous might at best get an extra 30 seconds of face time via brain shutdown due to cognitive dissonance ('how did someone that hot turn out that clueless?").

Of course, the guy who just dropped straight out of heaven is more likely on average to get a positive response than the guy who’s so repulsive he has to wear a bag over his head to avoid scaring little children, but that’s because I’m more likely to be interested in Hot Guy and want to talk to him too; what we’re talking about here is persistence in the face of unreciprocated interest, which is (drumroll) creepy regardless of the guy’s looks.

There’s a difference between “I don’t want to go out with you because I don’t know you well enough, ask me again in a month” and “I don’t want to out with you and I never will”. Persistence in case #1 = good. Persistence in case #2 = bad. The trick, of course, is telling the difference. Sorry about that, but people are complicated things.

JRB

48

Looks matter, sure, but not as much as you think. Initially, I would respond positively if an attractive guy gave me attention. But once the needle started tipping toward creepy and excessively persistent, his appeal drops like a stone. See, I was attracted to my share of pretty boys while growing up. Most of them were jerks. So now, when a pretty boy starts exhibiting poor behavior, I’m pretty quick to write him off forever. Been there, done that, you know?

An average-looking guy would not be written off as quickly. I might think that maybe he hasn’t had much experience dating, and is just clumsy about the whole thing. He’d get a little more slack.

Of course, everyone has an irretrievably creepy line, and once that’s crossed, it doesn’t matter a bit how cute he is. No amount of hot is worth the crazy.

Also, I think most men would be surprised at what most women found attractive. For me, George Clooney and Brad Pitt just look good in clothes and on some chick’s arm. I wouldn’t date or sleep with them. Someone mentioned Steven Page, the lead singer of Barenaked Ladies-- that’s more my speed.

49

The problem, pseudotriton ruber ruber, is that you’re separating physical looks from all the other components of attractiveness, and women (generally) just don’t work that way.

If you showed me two pics, a man I find attractive and a man I don’t find attractive, and asked me which I liked better, I would choose the former without hesitation.

However, once I meet them in person, their physical looks become a much smaller part of the equation. What I once found ugly, I might have no problem with. What I used to go “hubba hubba” for could leave me cold. Voice quality and tone, posture, hands, body language, demeanor, word choice, facial expression, clothing, and so forth all play a very large role.

You can insist on two men, identical in every detail, except for their looks, but that’s just a philosophical exercise. There is no such thing. Looks are always tempered by context, and no two men (women, orcs, puppies, or baristas) will ever be identical except for looks. It’s impossible to isolate that one trait and test for reaction to it and unfair that you insist we be “honest” about our reactions.

Please remember that when a woman describes someone as being “creepy,” that means that on some level she found him threatening. Not dangerous in a sexy, interesting way, but posing a threat to her safety. I’m a big fan of Gavin de Boecker, and in his book The Gift of Fear, he said something that bears repeating.

“Deep in his heart, a man is afraid that a woman will laugh at him. Deep in her heart, a woman is afraid that a man will kill her.”

De Boecker also made a point to tell women to trust their gut reactions. So, if a woman finds a man creepy, her gut reaction is that he is dangerous to her, and if she is wise, no amount of cajoling Brad Pittity is going to get her to answer yes. If she said no previously and then changes her mind, it’s most likely because she didn’t find him creepy, but there were other reasons - reasons which could be overcome - for her to say no.

He might look harmless, or he might look scary, but looks are not the deciding factor when it comes to creepy.

50

You are correct, that’s exactly what this is, but I don’t see anything unfair about asking for honest responses to a philosophical exercise. You may find it hard to be honest, or you may find it discomforting, but philosophy is not intended to soothe you, just to answer questions, and pose others. If you’re intent on justifying your own personal behavior above all else, you may well find philosophical questions unfair or difficult or too probing or off the true issue or whatever, but I don’t really see how what I’ve done here is unfair or even especially challenging.

51

I’m actually a little bit confused by the question. Can I request some clarification? Are you asking if his looks affect whether or not I am interested? Or are you saying I am not interested period, regardless of looks, and asking if his looks determine how I treat him in the course of turning him down?

52

Neither. I’m trying to find out if the same exact behavior from a man you consider attractive will elicit the same response from you coming from a less attractive man, especially if you’d give him a similar reponse (“No, thanks”) in both cases.

Both of the ladies I heard yesterday dishing the creeps who kept trying to hit on them, ask them out, etc. sounded angry and put-upon to me, whereas I knew from past (similar) occasions with men they found attractive enough to date, they weren’t necessarily offended by strange men hitting on them. Of course it could be that the guys they turned down were crude and morally repulsive, and the guys they eagerly accepted invitations to go out from were all kindly gentlemen of impeccable character, but from what I heard it didn’t really sound like that. They were offended, it seemed to me, when some guys hit on them but not so offended when other guys did it, and I’m trying to learn if a hypothetical guy would have his chances (of not giving offense, that is, not of getting a date) greatly enhanced by his physical appearance.

53

Well hey, maybe this meets enough of your qualifications to illustrate what some posters are trying to say:

I knew some identical twins in high school. One of them was fucking hot. The other was absolutely not. They were both well-groomed, rather intelligent people. Both were mildly interested in me, but only one made me want to jump his bones while the other just… didn’t do anything for me at all.

It’s not JUST looks that would make a pass more interesting – I was much more receptive to the pass from one than I was to the pass from the other, and they were identical twins. The only way to explain it is that one gave off “good vibes” and the other gave off, frankly, “extremely boring and a little creepy” vibes.

Moreover, someone better versed in Hollywood should speak to this: chemistry. Sometimes two people have it, and often they don’t. You can certainly tell when the leads in a movie have chemistry, and you can tell in your own life when you have chemistry with someone.

It often has nothing at all to do with looks, and everything to do with… who knows? You just connect, and it turns into romance or lasting friendship or a quick fuck or whatever. If the chemistry isn’t there, no amount of great looks make up for it. If it IS there, it quickly overwhelms any physical flaws as far as attraction goes.

54

Oh he was looking for a specified answer, you bet. Reread his OP and it’s right there. Then look at post #3 where he was sure he’d gotten his confirmation.

I’m not sure what this little exercise is supposed to tell him? That women are just like men when it comes to their preferences on looks? For the most part, we are. Would a man want to be bothered by a heinous looking woman each time she saw him? Of course he wouldn’t. Now if someone he considered to be a hottie flirted with him all the time, he’d be just fine with that. That’s pretty hypocritical according to the OP’s definition. So that’s not okay for women, but it’s okay for men?

55

slight hijack:
Just how does this work? How / why would someone be offended if someone who isn’t attractive looking tries to hit on someone else?

56

I assume they are actually being honest and saying that there is a certain level of (un)attractiveness below which they wouldn’t even consider dating someone (and a corresponding upper boundary above which they wouldn’t consider asking someone out). If a person below the lower boundary asks them out, then that person is either assuming he himself is above it or that they are below it themselves, which would be insulting. It sounds horrible, but if a mountain troll were the nicest girl on earth, I almost definitely wouldn’t know because I wouldn’t choose to interact with her in the first place.

prr, you can’t ask the question you want to ask. A person’s attractiveness is intrinsically linked to one’s perception of his other features. I, a straight male, will say that I would be more likely to think an ugly girl asking me out creepy than an attractive girl and correspondingly be less likely to say yes. (It’s so totally subjective, though. The first time I looked Jessica Alba up on the internet to see what people were talking about, I couldn’t (and still can’t) see why some people think she is the epitome of beauty.) Also, if someone kept asking me out and I didn’t think she were creepy or objectionable for other reasons, why would I say no? This sort of behavior would qualify as creepy for me, though, anyway. Besides, I am not the archetypal “jump in anyone’s pants” sort of guy (and I would find any girl who wanted to “jump in my pants” unattractive, too).

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

57

Outside of me being in a relationship, if I’m turning down the guy that must mean I’m not attracted to him for one reason or another. So his looks are beside the point. His persistence is going to aggravate me regardless of his appearance.

Anyone who hounds me for a date automatically becomes ugly.

58

Because, quite honestly, I am very attractive. I do not date trolls. Any troll who hits on my either has either wildly overestimated his own attractiveness, or wildly underestimated my standards. In either case, his reality and mine do not mesh.

I don’t need a supermodel, but a middle-aged man with a ponytail wearing freakin’ skull-patterned gym pants (why yes, that is based on a real-life encounter) who hits on me has to be delusional. That guy and I don’t even occupy the same plane of existence. For him to decide that I am attainable for him is, frankly, insulting.

On a different note, I’m flabbgergasted by the number of people who say that any stranger talking to them is creepy. Good lord, I’d have to go into seclusion for my mental health if I were creeped out every time a stranger flirted with me. I met a ten-year boyfriend on the subway! Strangers are just people you don’t know yet. I date a lot, and I have friends who ask me “Where do you meet so many people?” and you know what I tell them? Everywhere. The world is full of people. Just take off your ipod and your “don’t fuck with me” face every once in a while.

59

Oh, all right. So you’re shallow and a narcissist. Thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:.

60

QFT.

Look, in my opinion, the term ‘creepy’ has two meanings, just like in that whole ‘nice guy’ debacle. There’s the creepy which means a girl feels threatened, and there’s the creepy that is used as a shorthand for when a girl doesn’t like somebody.

The following is a hijack. If it spawns its own thread, so be it. Just warning y’all.

I’m really biased against the term creepy. I think it should be abolished from relationship vocabulary. Why? Because it’s ambiguous. Because like I said above, it seems to have two meanings. Because I have been called creepy several times in the past, sometimes deservedly and many times undeservedly. It hurts. Being called creepy is more painful than a thousand polite rejections.

What’s worst I think is the un-knowing. In the past I’ve done things that upon retrospect I smack myself and go, yeah no wonder she thought I was creepy. On the other hand, I’ve sometimes been called creepy for no reason whatsoever. I was once called ‘creepy Auto’ by a club once, and my only crime there was being socially awkward at times. Maybe that’s what creepy can mean, awkward. Still, I have to wonder if perhaps I did (do) something unconconsciously that girls consider creepy, or maybe is it indeed like I suspect, just a shorthand for when girls dont like a guy and cant explain why.

At Boston College where I spent the last 6 years, I heard the teem ‘creepy’ being bandied around by girls quite a lot. I didn’t know the circumstances often, but seeing as BC is low on stalkers and axe-murderers, it did seem many times like the only crime a guy was guilty of was being either unattractive or just unliked by the girl. We did have instances of rape, but the sheer amount and the totally casual way the word was used made it very easy to think that looks and attraction were the real things being discussed.

Many girls don’t seem to realize how much it hurts a guy to be called creepy, especially when he didn’t do anything wrong (or did something wrong and doesn’t know it). I’m awkward often, but not an axe-murderer or a crazy jerk, yet I’ve been the recipient of this term a few times. Listen ladies, being called creepy is worse than a simple rejection; it’s like being shunned. It makes you feel that you have no social value. For the longest time I believed myself to give off a creepy vibe, and this ruined my confidence around women. To this day I sometimes feel like I elicit such feelings. For a time, my experiences with creepiness made me very bitter. It fueled the fire that burned me into becoming a whiny, passive-aggressive, ‘nice guy,’ loser for a while. Perhaps it was that same behavior that made me potentially give off a creepy vibe, heh. Now I don’t think about it so much, instead focusing on tangible ways of improving myself and my attractiveness.

In any case, I’d much rather people use ‘threatened’ or ‘scared,’ words that have a very concrete meaning. Creepy is like ‘nice guy,’ overused and ambiguous as hell.