You’re probably right about this. Her father is actually far less opposed than she is. He was one of the voices of reason when she moved out, and he has (at the very least) not been vehemently opposed to the idea of his daughter living with someone in another country.
I just think you need to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that she wants to choose living with you near your family over making you live up there near her family. And MAKE SURE that she can stick by that decision. The amount of control and dependence in her relationship to her parents is enough of a huge red flag that someone like me would have dropped the relationship a long time ago. But you didn’t… so just make sure that she can follow through with you on the decisions you’ve already made.
If her parents are Canadian citizens, that will naturally limit their ability to come harass you/your kids in the States. So that’s a huge positive. But you need to be aware they will still call her all the freaking time in a bid to control her from a distance… if she allows them to control her, it’s quite likely to ruin your relationship with her.
It sounds like you’re all starry-eyed that getting her away from her parents will magically break the emotional control they have over her… it just does not work that way. If she has been emotionally abused into craving their approval, you cannot “love” that away. Try getting her some counseling, if she will go.
Her father is your ally then. He is probably sick to death of his wife’s antics, and aware of the impact all the tantrum throwing has on his daughter. He probably sees how it diminishes her confidence. If he has heart issues, he’s probably had his priorities realigned a time or two. Maybe his encouragement for the move was because that way, he moved by proxy.
So in reality, it now seems more like 3 against 1; not 2 against 2 as it initally seemed.
Use those favourable odds. Fathers generally want to know, and see that their daughters are happy. Guarantee this for him by not being secretive anymore. Ask him for his daughter’s hand (as both Salem and I have suggested.) In the world of tradition, crazy mama is not invited to this scenario, so it’s a meeting between you and her dad.
See - it’s getting easier already.
Salem’s so much nicer than me.
I’ve known a couple of people like the OP’s fiance (and my mom is a little like the fiance’s mom in wanting to be very controlling, although thank God not nearly as bad) and it’s really a hard thing to deal with. One of my relationships was secret from my parents for a number of years because I didn’t want to deal with their racism. So I do sympathize.
I do agree with 6Impossible about going there in person – if both parents were completely opposed to you, I’d be okay with the phone call, but if the dad is not dead set against you, you might as well try to get him over on your side as much as you can by doing it the “traditional” way. I mean, what’s the worst that can happen? The mom will scream at you? She’ll try to give her daughter a complete guilt trip? Going to happen anyway, right?
Or you could try what my husband did – we lived across the country and weren’t going to go in person, so he called my mom to ask her blessing. She wasn’t there so it went to voice mail. Then she spent a while trying to figure out why my boyfriend would have called her instead of me – is raspberry in the hospital? is something horribly wrong? and when it was just that he wanted to marry me, she was so relieved that she was totally fine with it 
Yeah, all of that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Well, not reasonable, but when the going gets tough and all that…
I’ll probably talk with her about and if propose the idea of approaching them together. I like to consider myself a normal, charming guy. If she doesn’t accept me for who I am, then at least I’ll know I tried.
Love cannot conquer all in interracial or intercultural dating. I’ve seen lots and lots of interracial marriages fall apart because of one family (usually the less culturally liberal one) putting huge pressure and strain on the union. I am the product of an interracial and intercultural marriage and it wasn’t easy.
You are marrying the family. Don’t fool yourself.
I’d still approach the father first, and avoid a two-on-two situation. He seems more reasonable, and you need all the reasonability you can get.
If the four of you (somehow) get together and the mother puts on a screamer, the father will probably feel obligated to appease her by taking her side.
You two need his views on this, without interruption by an old-aged toddler.
I should add, in my (limited, anecdotal) experience, the married couples I’ve known with toxic controlling in-laws have all been absolutely fine (as couples; the relationships with in-laws have often not been good at all, ranging from “I will complain at great length to my other daughter when my daughter’s husband insists on such freaky control measures as not always letting me have my own way” (my mom) to “I will cut off all contact with my daughter” (one of my friends’ in-laws) ). But as rachelellogram pointed out, this does depend on the couple seeing their relationship as their primary family and not allowing anything, parents or in-laws or whatever, to get between them no matter what kind of shady emotional blackmail they try to pull. And approaching things rationally and calmly when something does come up, because it’s sometimes hard to realize when one’s parents are trying emotional blackmail, and sometimes hard to differentiate that from normal intercultural upbringing variance. (My husband and I have had these talks, where he points out, “Do you realize your parents are being completely unreasonable here?” and I’m all “uh… no? Uh… okay, I see you have a point…” and at other times where I say, “They are actually being reasonable here, though I see how it can look unreasonable if you weren’t brought up that way.”)
I do tend to have very intellectual, committed friends, so I think that helps my sample. It is of course easy to find many, many examples of people who’ve let their parents get between them, or who can’t have rational discussions about it.
Um, also, I forgot to say this before: Congratulations!
Okay…And I’ve already acknowledged that we both intend on facing it head-on and dealing with it.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting your post, but I’ve already confessed that you do “marry the family” to an extent. There will be problems, but there are problems in any marriage/relationship. Some big, some small. Some are able to be conquered, and some are insurmountable.
It worked out for you, so I don’t necessarily understand the “you’re screwed and it’s not going to work” mentality.
@Rasp: Thank you! Anecdotal evidence is always helpful.
@6Impossible: Her dad has always (to me) seemed like somewhat of a pushover, at least in terms of keeping her mother happy. I recall her saying that when her mother exploded over the move-out, she started throwing around language like “your father doesn’t love me” and such. He was standing right in the room. I’m not sure he’ll make a great ally.
This. I have a close female relative whose relationship with her mother was VERY similar to what’s been described here. “Sally” is now 46, and her long engagement/marriage to boyfriend-husband #1 has somehow survived 28 years (dating-engagement 6 years, marriage 22). To my amazement, their marriage is a happy one today.
Sally’s relationship with her extremely controlling, manipulative, co-dependent mother has changed over time only in the superficial details, and has been enormously disruptive to Sally’s emotional growth and well-being, not to mention her marriage. And this in spite of Sally’s twice-monthly sessions with a psychologist for the past 18 years or so.
Edit: by “This”, I didn’t mean to include the “all starry-eyed” comment.
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If you lived with an hysterical emotional blackmailer, you might seem like a pushover too, when you’re faced with yet another explosive, irrational outburst.
Give him the benefit of respecting that he’s your fiance’s father, and talk with him. Until you do, whatever you’ve been told can’t be verified.
See, the problem is you said “but there are problems in any marriage relationship”. You’re facing things that most couples simply don’t. Most couples are of the same race, age, religion and socioeconomic statuses. You’re facing different socioeconomic statuses, races and religions. That’s huge. I’m not saying “don’t stick it out” I’m saying you need to realize it’s gonna be a hell of a lot harder. Do you want to work really hard at your relationship? Many people don’t.
My parents’ relationship has worked out because 1) while both were raised different religions they themselves are both irreligious 2) they came from similar socioeconomic backgrounds 3) they were both immigrants and 4) they had similar refugee/emigrant stories.
Here is what they faced in spite of their similarities: their families refused to attend their wedding. My father’s family refused to speak to him for years. They called the other spouse horrid names.
They finally grudgingly accepted the union when my mom became pregnant with me (my mom’s family moreso). My dad’s family moreso became okay with it when my mom became pregnant with Middle Bluth, the first male grandchild. Also what made both families shape up was that each parent provided a unified front: both chose each other over their families and let it be known. That’s hugely important.
Can she go on not speaking to her family for years if she pisses them off? It could be anything - where you choose to live, how you choose to live, anything.
I’m not trying to discourage you - I just see a lot of young people (under 30) okay with interracial dating. And that’s good. But most people who date interracially are NOT in any way prepared to marry someone from a different background.
If you’re both fully committed to not having children and she’s fully committed to picking you over them, then mazeltov! You’re set :). Do you think if she HAD to choose between you and them that she’d choose you?
I suppose you’re right about that. Though I’d tend to not call into question her honesty, as trust has been a key component in all of this. All I know is that it’s going to get interesting in the coming weeks.
I know you’re hitting hard on the whole interracial bit, and I’m being sort of a nitpick here, but it’s not interracial. They are Maltese, but she was adopted. Her paternal parents were Canadian and white. My fault for not mentioning that, but it still stands, really. She might as well have been raised with whatever culture the parents shared.
Do you think if she HAD to choose between you and them that she’d choose you?
I believe she would. I won’t obviously deeply delve into why I think that, but I’m fairly confident that she would, if the need arises.
Wow. This too was almost exactly the situation Sally was in. I strongly agree with Breakfast’s suggestions. And FWIW, I do think that your relationship can work.
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It’s not a question of honesty, but perception. And without putting too fine a point on it, trust has been also been sacrificed here too.
Trust as far as her parents are concerned, I suppose. She’s been doing things without their approval/permission for years, and while it has been by choice, it’s mostly just to avoid any issues.
Issues arise because something is never resolved. Continually using avoidance as a tactic is not that useful as an adult. It’s a strategy often used by kids because it’s a passive strategy to gain power.
There is great advantage in growing out of it.
Oh I agree. She’s been working on that.
Huh, well that’s…interesting. The point still stands about different cultures, religions and socioeconomic statuses though. FWIW, my mom does not call their marriage “interracial”; she doesn’t ‘see’ my dad with a different skin color at all. She considers it cross-cultural.
That’s most of the battle. Perhaps you should ask her point blank rather than assume you know the answer.