This actually ties in more with a number of threads we’ve had in the past in MPSIMS and IMHO, but since it’s about two characters from a television show I figured this was the most appropriate place.
For the sake of this discussion let’s focus only on the first and second seasons, culminating with Jim revealing his feelings to Pam in the season two finale.
It’s made clear to us early on that Jim is in love with Pam, but from her perspective he is only a very close friend. This would put Jim squarely in the Nice Guy camp, the kind of guy who enters into a friendship while harboring ulterior motives.
That being said, I have a number of female friends who have expressed longing for that type of a romance, which runs contrary to the Nice-Guy-stuck-in-the-Friend-Zone reality that is so often lamented by guys on this board.
What is everyone else’s take on the situation? Was Jim a nice guy or a Nice Guy? Are there any ladies on this board who sympathized with Jim during the first two seasons? Has anyone here ever been a “Jim” or a “Pam?” How did the situation end up playing out?
I think Pam had feelings for Jim for some time, but she felt obligated to remain with Roy. As the flaws in that relationship became more obvious, she began allowing herself to think more seriously about Jim. I’d have to re-watch S1 & 2 to recall the exact timeline, though.
FWIW, I generally like Jim but I think he crossed the line with Pam. Making a move on an engaged woman is not cool. Nothing wrong with making a play once she’s unattached, though.
I suspect that “type of romance” includes a nice guy who they consider to be a catch. I don’t think the friends first strategy is inherently flawed, it’s just that a lot of guys aren’t attractive enough (physically, intellectually, etc.) to make it to the next level. Ask a girl for her phone number at a bar, and you know right away if she is romantically interested. Become friends with her at work, and it becomes much more nebulous.
The bright line dividing the nice guy from the Nice Guy in this sort of situation is whether the friendship or the crush came first. And we don’t know whether Jim developed romantic feelings as he got to know her better, or whether he was hanging out in the hopes of getting in her pants and then grew to truly like and respect her. When the show started, the friendship and relationship were both pretty well-established, so any discussion of Jim’s being a nice guy vs a Nice Guy is pretty much blind speculation.
What your female friends are talking about when they say they want a relationship that grew out of a friendship is the former. Two people who genuinely like and respect each other having those feelings grow into something much bigger. It’s a whole other situation from the Nice Guy scenario–the Nice Guy doesn’t truly like and respect the woman in these situations, or else he wouldn’t be deceiving her about his intentions.
And, tbh, it really rather boggles me that this distinction isn’t completely obvious and self-explanatory.
But you explained yourself why it isn’t completely obvious:
We do learn in Season 4 that Jim had feelings for Pam from the very first day he met her. Which to me would point to Nice Guy. And when he came out and told Pam he was in love with her, there was no way for her to know whether the feelings came before the friendship or vice versa, hence no way to tell whether he was the nice guy or the Nice Guy.
What it all boils down to is a guy telling a girl who thought of him as a friend that he is in love with her. At that point isn’t it pretty insignificant whether the attraction preceeded the friendship? And what would compel Pam to believe Jim even if he tried to explain to her that the friendship came first?
When a female thinks of a male as “just a friend” or “a nice guy,” it usually means, “there’s no chemistry there.” But I thought there was always a chemistry between Jim and Pam.
Ditto. That made me cringe. But I feel that way for anyone making a move on someone they know to be a serious relationship (of course being engaged is even more down that line). A lot of people of course sympathize with Jim (he’s supposed to be somewhat), but imagine if you were a nicer, more considerate Roy, and some guy at the office thought your fiance wasn’t being treated as nicely as he could treat her…
As for the female friends wanting someone like that. Well, yeah, they want someone who looks as good and is as charming and good as Jim. Someone who they are interested in, but it starts out as work friends. The quintessential nice guy who gets trapped in the friend zone appears to be Toby.
Unless, of course, they are in a relationship with someone else, which is what Pam was in during Seasons 1 and 2.
It’s rather limiting to say that you’re either attracted to someone or you want to be their friend; I suspect that most of the time, it’s a mixture of both. Every female friend I have, there is some level of attraction, ranging from a tiny bit to a lot. And I suspect that most of them are attracted to me to some degree. That doesn’t mean it’s enough to want to date/marry/fuck them, it’s just that sexual attraction is often an issue between opposite genders (or same sex, if gay), even if the actual relationship never acknowledges it and stays as friendship the entire time. That’s just natural, and to say it isn’t happening is just putting your head in the sand, IMO.
In any case, whether I’m attracted to her more or less, it doesn’t mean I don’t genuinely want to be her friend. It sometimes takes time with someone to figure out if they’re better suited as a platonic or a romantic interest. And if that’s the choice you have to make (as opposed to whether I can or can’t stand this person), then it’d be stupid to let that person slip away from you just because you can’t decide what your intentions are quite yet.
Early on Jim had certain Nice Guy quirks, but I don’t think he was a Nice Guy. He lacks the desperation and single-mindedness that characterizes the Nice Guy. He might have been the “friend who wanted more” but he didn’t let it dominate his personality. He had his own life and pursued/dated other women, he had a seemingly active social life. These things disqualify him for Nice Guy status.
I disagree entirely. Engagement ain’t a sacred bond – it means you’re planning something. Given Jim’s feelings and the fact that I think he genuinely felt Pam would be unhappy with Roy, I think he’s in bounds. What Jim did is certainly, in my book, more honest and good than, say, remaining “just friends” and trying to feed advice to Pam to make her second guess the marriage. Jim was direct and open.
Now, that’s not to say Roy wouldn’t have every reason in the world to want to smack him in the face and be completely justified.
Jim started dating Katy at the end of Season 1 basically to kill time since he couldn’t be with the girl he was actually in love with. Watch the Booze Cruise episode again. He acts completely indifferent towards her while he’s around Pam.
After he got shot down at the end of Season 2 he left town. He left the state. He stated in the Halloween episode that Pam was the only thing keeping him from taking a better job somewhere else.
And analyzing the entire Pam-Jim-Karen dynamic in Season 3, it’s almost as if Jim started dating Karen as a way to make himself seem unavailable to Pam, as a means to incite jealousy, more so than any real feelings for Karen.
You also have to remember that there were lots of little incidents leading up to that moment that showed that Pam had feelings for Jim. And Jim was going to be moving away. It was more of a “last chance” move.
I think that’s an unfair evaluation of both Jim and the so-called “Nice Guy.” Very often, they don’t enter into a friendship with ulterior motives. Rather, they become friends with a woman, and then develop feelings for that person. Or, they might become friends with the woman while simultanously having some attraction toward her, which is not the same as having an ulterior motive.
Little moments like what? Goofing off? Joking? Flirting? The majority of girls flirt. That doesn’t mean they’re in love with you and will leave their fiance for you.
An excellent explanation. This is why it’s wrong to disparage Jim simply because he had feelings for her right from the start. Those feelings don’t necessarily mean that he was acting out some nefarious scheme when he chose to be her friend. Human feelings just aren’t that simple.
And that’s why all this talk about the dreaded “Nice Guy” is often misguided. These discussions paint the poor fella as though he was some scheming deceiver who never truly wanted a friendship. That’s a caricature, plain and simple.
I think the show originally folowed the unrequited, pathetic schlub model from the UK show, and then made the mistake of transitioning to schmoopy, lovey dovey tripe after the third season.
So no, Jim was never really a friend. He was always just trying to get into her pants. I also didn’t get the impression that Pam felt any sexual attraction to Jim in the first couple of seasons.
The only reason marriage is a “sacred bond” is because of the perception of the society. Engagement is also considered to be by our society, though not as strong or sacred as marriage, a pretty strong bond as well. This is one of the reason scummy guys try to justify trying to steal someone else’s girlfriend by saying “there’s no ring on that finger”.
I think most people would consider Jim’s actions to be “out of bounds” if he wasn’t the protagonist on the show (and if Roy wasn’t played up to be such a horrible person… if Roy was a nice guy, a lot of people would be less happy with what Jim did).
It is still societal perception. Sure you get a legal document which is a bit more difficult to get out of (depends on the circumstances, of course). But the idea that it is a “sacred” bond is simply based on the society’s perception of it, and so is the idea that it is far worse to break up a marriage rather than engagement - though I’d argue that society does consider breaking up on an engagement to be pretty bad as well, as long as the en-fianced isn’t a horrible person as many romantic comedies like to push forward (I will say I really liked avoiding that about “My Best Friend’s Wedding”).
edit: Probably, also, the sacredness of marriage has fallen a bit due to the ever climbing divorce rates.