Just once in my lifetime, I would like to see a celebrity male asked how he manages to juggle family life and a career. I saw that Susan Sarandon was going to be interviewed about this recently and I wondered if anyone had ever asked Tim Robbins.
I know that people like to say that wives had the real power, but the fact is that at the time The Honeymooners was made, there were no laws against marital rape (no such thing as marital rape, your wife was supposed to have sex with you when you wanted it), wives couldn’t do their own banking without their husband’s permission, and a woman couldn’t live independently without a host of problems. If Ralph had hauled off and hit Alice, their neighbors probably would not have intervened, and the police would not likely have been called, and societal reaction to the incident would have depended on whether people thought Alice was “asking for it” or not.
Ah the inequality of the sexes, where even if wronged party is a man, it’s supposedly more insulting to the woman. Because you know, if it didn’t imply that women were weak, all of those scenes where a woman beats up a man, or rapes him, would be FUNNY AS HELL.
I think a lot of you guys have your panties in a bunch over minor and sometimes imagined slights. (Really, Hillarity N. Suze, you must have a new purse for every $600 dress that you can only wear once or you’ll be publicly ridiculed? You’re being mocked behind your back for having family photos on your desk? Get some new friends.) There are advantages to being male and advantages to being female. Enjoy the advantages of your particular sex and get over it.
When we went car shopping a couple of weeks ago to replace my wife’s car, the salesman kept talking to me. Since I kept turning to my wife and repeating his questions verbatim, he finally got the picture. Since the car was for her, he should be talking to her.
It was especially funny when it came time for negotiating. The poor sucker actually thought he had a chance because he was dealing with a woman. He was dealing with an electrical engineer who could work diffy qs on the back of an envelope and never bluffs. When she pointed out that no matter how he shuffled the numbers, the actual car price wasn’t going down, he said she could always leave. We left.
There’s a reason she does the negotiating.
The thing is, I WAS wearing comfortable clothes, that I thought were pretty nice, to work, and my female boss told me they were not formal enough. She got pretty specific with me-- heels and hose, button down tailored shirts, shorter skirts, a “done” hairstyle, manicure, etc. All of which are pretty uncomfortable. There was no room for me to create my own dress code, and I sure as fuck didn’t bring it on myself. If I could have worn slacks, shirt, tie, loafers, I would have been relieved.
Have you found that to be the case often, that it’s a woman who nitpicks your wardrobe and rigidly defines what clothes are good enough?
My last job had a business casual dress code, and I wore cargo pants and polo shirts with black Sketchers work shoes every day. This job has no dress code and I doubt any of the guys here (I work with 35 men and 5 women) have noticed that I only own 5 pair of jeans and about 10 t-shirts.
Three of the other female employees are real clothes-a-holic types. They have probably noticed, but said nothing. The other two are a lot like me and don’t much care as long as it’s reasonably clean and not the exact same thing she wore yesterday.
I’m a software engineer, which I suppose does something to explain the perception that we’re supposed to have horrid fashion sense and lack awareness of what ‘normal’ social expectations are.
While my experience of non-work formal wear is different from Hillarity N. Suze’s, I have to support her on the work wardrobe issue.
Sure, a lot of businesses have toned down the formality, and “business casual” may give more leeway to women than men. BUT there are still businesses that require formal dress, and I’d bet my bottom dollar that the closer you get to the corporate boardroom, the more traditional and dressed-up the dress code becomes. And sometimes it’s a written code, while sometimes it’s “merely” a matter of whether you can advance your career or your chosen look will hold you back.
About 15 years ago, when I worked at IBM, sure, secretaries could wear a pretty dress or a long flowing skirt with a sweater (though I rarely saw trousers on women). But the female managers, executives, and such wore business suits: ensembles much like a man’s suit, but with a skirt (about knee length), and slightly more tailoring. Of course, hose and high heels were required with such an outfit. More recently, when I was working as a lawyer, there was some question/discussion about whether wearing a pants suit to court was sufficiently formal, or if it would be considered disrespectful.
So where business casual doesn’t reign, the men are prevented from expressing their individuality with clothing, while the women must bear actual health risks from theirs (pantyhose, high heels). Even though I think wearing a tie would suck, I think I’d take the man’s outfit any day.
Yup, your situation is no more universal than mine. I’d imagine most dress codes aren’t that specific and I’m sure the average is closer to the middle of our two experiences.
Serious question here, coming from a person who very intentionally didn’t go into the corporate sector for many reasons, but the dress code was a big one: is it really still the case that HEELS are specifically required? Can you not wear dressy ballet flats? Like these, perhaps? I just can’t imagine, with a suitably suitable…uh…suit, that anyone would notice that the toe poking out the front hem isn’t followed by a spike in the back.
My Doc Marten thrift store sandals and I eagerly await your answer.
What businesses? Luxury hospitality?
I had a really long post typed out before the boards went down, and I don’t wanna retype it. Suffice it to say that while in lots of places you can get by with more casual dress, it seems to me that if you want to make the big bucks you still have to do the dress suit + high heels + pantyhose.
I have this pet theory, uncorroborated by any concrete evidence, that tall women - over 5’10", say - are more likely to pair up with a considerably shorter man than one just a tick shorter. You’re more likely to see a 6’0" gal with a 5’8" guy than one 5’11" (or even 6’). A lot shorter seems to be where they gravitate - after taller.
Yeah, I’m 5’ 10 1/2", and I’m attracted to tall women. You wanna make something out of it?
Just thought of one the other night. A bummish guy friend was droning on about his magical time traveling across Europe. He talked about sleeping in a park in Spain then meeting a group of guys who turned out to be a rock band, so he spent the next night partying with them. A girlfriend piped up. She’d been to that same park a few years back, as a student, while traveling with a girlfriend. As they walked through, a guy jumped out of the bushes and came on them. Then they had to switch rooms at their hostel when their door wouldn’t lock. And this all after being assaulted on the street in the South of France.
Sometimes I wish I was guy if only to travel alone or to be more social with strangers. I know there are dangers either way, but even in western Europe it’s easy to feel like prey while walking alone.
It’s really interesting how many of these comments fit the classical feminine and masculine ‘spheres’ (women don’t feel comfortable or aren’t welcome alone in bars or betting parlours, in some boardrooms or at certain stores - I’ve definitely been ignored/talked down to while getting electronic equipment - and men are made to feel like they don’t belong in the kitchen or around children).
I’ve heard people complain about the virgin / whore dichotomy. But men don’t even have that many options. We’re pretty much considered whores all the time. Sometimes we’re considered successful whores, and more often we’re considered unsuccessful ones.
Come to think of it, it’s arguable that we do have a second category - “gay”. A man who doesn’t show an instant desire to hit on or get with anything vaguely female simply must be gay.
Living in another culture often gives a peek to what some people face back home. For example, when women complain that computer or car salespeople don’t talk to them, I can understand completely. When I go somewhere with a Japanese or an Asian looking person, I often get completely ignored, or the salesperson will continue facing and addressing their comment to my companion, even if I’m the one answering and asking questions.
It’s really bazaar to be talking to someone whose eyes are focused on someone else, doesn’t seem to recognize you, but continues the conversation.
That depends on the industry you’re in, and what you consider to be the big bucks.
You want to be the CEO of some multi-billion-dollar financial house, you’ll probably have to wear a suit, but then that’s not a goal of mine and I can make a very comfortable living (I’m at ‘pretty comfortable’ right now) in jeans and t-shirts, and nobody says a word when I show up in flip flops in July.
My salary is considered ‘big bucks’ by some, and not by others, so I tend not to go so much on actual dollars but whether or not I can afford to live a lifestyle that is comfortable to me.
I can, therefore I win.
I’m glad to hear it. I hate the prescribed styles for females and while I don’t think I will ever earn a lot of money (nor do I need it) it’s nice to hear there are well-paying jobs out there where it’s not important.
No silly, I mean formal business attire - i.e. suits, as opposed to casual business attire like slacks and sport coat, dresses, trousers and a sweater, etc.
A very quick Google reassured me that my memories/instincts are not wrong. Here’s a link to a college’s “what to wear to an interview” page. Note most of the women are wearing skirt suits, and all are wearing high heels.
WhyNot, don’t ask me why or how it came to be, but flats are considered more casual, and look weird with a formal business suit (skirted, of course - trousers make other shoe options easier, but are themselves slightly less formal).
Here’s a page from a communications consulting company that gives what I consider a good rundown of what is appropriate garb at work. (Though I never new formal business wear was meant to draw attention to your face - that kind of makes sense.)
Sometimes the job doesn’t have to be important in order to have obnoxious dress code requirements. I’ve seen dress codes that actually specify that pantyhose MUST be worn with any skirt outfit along with “proper undergarments” (and don’t we all wonder who in the hell has the gall to check!) specified for women, but I’ve never seen an undergarment requirement for men.
My daughter worked as a waitress in a top end restaurant and she was required to wear black pantyhose–she couldn’t wear tights even though they were much more practical and less expensive (one busy night in a restaurant and hose are TOAST) so basically she was required to buy 3-5 pairs of hose a week. It adds up, and since the female servers HAD to wear skirts the pantyhose thing was nonnegotiable. The men didn’t have to wear anything like that, just nice durable socks.
On the other side of the coin, I think it’s reprehensible that women control all of the reproductive rights short of a man having a vasectomy. Birth control failure and she doesn’t want to get an abortion? Welcome to eighteen years of wallet reduction, sir! That’s just wrong. Consent to sex != consent to parenthood. And don’t get me started on women who get pregnant intentionally in order to “make him do the right thing.” That’s wrong on SO many levels…
Multiple orgasms are nice, and almost make up for the fact that we have to work so much harder to establish the response. The training exercises are fun, though, so that’s okay… 