I just thought of something… I don’t remember; did anybody tell Jack there was a plane full of heroin on the island? He had kind of a funny look on his face when he was looking at the Virgin Marys, but maybe it was just gas.
To my best recollection, we’ve never seen anybody tell Jack, and I thought he looked a little funny when Locke showed him the statues, too. But on the other hand, he didn’t say “What? Heroin? Are you kidding me?”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but on our first Journey Into The Rabbit Hole wasn’t there, you know, an air vent going straight into the safe that Kate used to grab herself a gun?
Sure, it got bolted from the inside, but whatever Sayid was able to use to tunnel through 8 feet(!) of poured concrete will probably let you get through a grate with some bolts in it.
Oh yes, and I may have figured out one huge flaw in Sawyer’s plan - for Sawyer. Charlie is now the one who knows where the guns are, not Sawyer. Correct? Either Charlie left the rifle where Sawyer could get to it, or they both know where the gun stash is. If so, one of them will move it at some point. They have to. As a matter of fact, it could fit in quite nicely as a parallel with Jack and Locke’s “Only one guy knowing the combination is a bad thing” bit.
Finally, MaxTheVool, can you tell me that there could possibly be ANY worse time for Jack to start demanding guns than when his motivation is because Pissed Off Korean Guy wants some revenge because his wife was attacked? By comparison, their trip to hunt down Michael was well thought-out.
-Joe
I assumed Sawyer moved them again after Charlie moved them the first time. I doubt he left them where Charlie could get to them later on. The reason I assumed this was that Sawyer offerd Charlie a Virgin Mary, as if Charlie couldn’t get to them without Sawyer’s help. Charlie then pointed out that he could have taken all the heroin when it was in his hands, making me think it is no longer.
I think they are all being affected by something on the island. Early on, didn’t Locke say something about how the island was a test? And remember that Ethan said something about taking people away who aren’t ‘good enough’.
I’m thinking that whatever is affecting them on the Island, it’s amplifying their flaws or weak spots. Jack has a Saviour complex, so now he’s turning into manic defender boy. Sawyer’s tendency to con and control people is dominating his personality. Ana Lucia’s paranoia caused her to kill another innocent person, etc.
Just a thought.
You’re right. I was thinking of short-term “let’s go kill them now”, rather than something that involved work. 
Quick poll - since many many comments in this thread have me thinking that people read Charlie differently. . .
1.) is Charlie a smackhead?
2.) is Charlie a bad guy, or the victim of bad circumstances?
IMHO neither. “Is he or isn’t he” was the big question for me, b/c if he is then his actions are more likely the result of the drug, and not the Island - and therefore reprehensible. But I never really thought he was using again because in round 2 (post “cleanup”, with the Virgin Heroin) he was never shown to be jonesing, like he was at the beginning of the series. And the clincher was his comment when Sawyer offers the statue.
So I really really don’t think he’s been using. I think that the statues have become a Totem of sorts, a sign of the temptation that he’d overcome. That’s why he’s so weird about them - and since it’s hard to describe why he’d be drawn to something he doesn’t want to do again he’s weird when confronted.
But of course, that weirdness (and his inability to articulate his fascination) is what everybody sees as druggie behavior.
I think that everything to do with Baby Aaron was an island-induced freakout - not dissimilar to the horse/dad/walt sightings. I think that the reaction of the losties and their ostricization of him have turned him extremely bitter and broken a lot of his social leanings. . . You notice that even in helping Sawyer out he was not doing it with the obsequiousness that he showed to Locke and others. He did it on his own terms, for himself. And again, the disdain of his comment to Sawyer. . . “What? like I needed you to give me a statue. sod off”.
I don’t think he needs a smackdown (no pun intended).
That makes me think that perhaps Sawyer doesn’t have quite the monopoly on firearms that he things he does. By admitting that he could have taken the Mary statue, Charlie also implies that he could have taken a weapon or two as well. He probably couldn’t have gotten away with a rifle, but he certainly could have a pistol and a box of ammo under that sweatshirt he’s always wearing…
EZ
He created a major shift in power that benefitted the most selfish, assholish guy on the island besides himself because he wanted petty revenge on Locke, who, given the circumstances, was acting perfectly reasoanbly towards Charlie.
Beat down. With a stick.
I was thinking about question 2 yesterday, in less polite terms: Is Charlie a fk-up or an ahole? Like Misery, I go with the former.
I’ve watched all of season one repeatedly in the last couple weeks (getting friends and family hooked - bwa ha haaa) and in those eps it’s clear that Charlie is always trying to do the right thing, but often ends up making bad choices - taking heroin when frustrated with Liam, refusing Liam’s offer of rehab in Sydney, retrieving his stash from the cockpit loo. But when pressed, he knows he wants to be clean, be a good (boy)friend to Claire, a good dad to Aaron, and a helpful lostaway.
If the island is indeed magnifying the weaknesses of the lostaways (the best theory I’ve yet seen, IMO) then lately Charlie has piled fk-up on top of fk-up, starting with hiding the stash (I agree he kept it for personal reasons but not to take it), lying to Claire, failing to properly explain & seek help for his dreams/visions about Aaron, and so forth. He’s not doing it to be an ahole, but he can’t help being a fk-up.
Whereas the lostaways of yore - particularly Jack and Locke - would have been forgiving, understanding, and at least take a minute to listen to his ravings and try to figure out what is going on, they are all succumbing to their own island-induced-weakness-magnifying issues and overreacting. In doing so, they have effectively pushed Charlie into higher levels of fk-up-ness so that his behavior starts going into ahole territory - as with attacking Sun (perhaps the most likeable person on the entire island) just to humiliate Locke.
I’ve been frustrated with this season so far for many of the reasons posted previously, particularly the uneasy feeling that the characters are behaving inconsistently with what was so carefully set up last season just for dramatic impact or lazy writing. But with this episode, it’s starting to feel like this is deliberate (though “the island makes everyone crazy” plot device feels a bit like a cop-out) and will pay off in the end. I hope.
It must be making the writers smile that so much debate has sprung up about the characters’ behaviors and motivations, and not so much about “what is the TCM?” If they wanted a character-driven story from the very beginning, it seems to be working.
side note: I agree that it feels like Charlie is on his way out, but I vote NOOOOOO! I’ve loved him on the show, plus I’ve met Dominic Monaghan and he’s superduper nice. Keep him employed, please!
After he got shat on by everyone, including Locke, for getting caught up in what seemed to him a critical situation: Aaron’s lack of baptism. He had thought himself redeemed, but found out that “once a druggie, always a druggie” is everyone else’s attitude. It wasn’t petty.
Story is: If you’re not Charlie, you can get caught up in whatever island-induced weirdness you want: hear voices, see people, animals, go on a crusade of self-reliance, - hell - you can kill someone by being a paranoid control-freak ex-cop. But if Charlie does anything weird, it’s because he’s a druggie and deserves getting punched three times in the face and having everyone turn their backs on him.
That said, I agree with your statement. I just think that the underlying assumptions - Charlie and Sawyer are bad people - is pretty shallow and in some regards, I think the rest of the losties have it coming. Payback’s a bitch. You don’t just shit on someone and expect them to take it just because they’re at the low end of the pecking order.
Isn’t that attitude what everyone hates about Jack - that he’s a self-righteous prick who’s unilaterally shouldered the leadership role (and the martyr complex that comes with it)? He seemingly gets away with making unilateral decisions without reprocussions. . . except that in doing so he’s created his nemesis (Sawyer) - just as Locke’s over-blown father figure role has created his own (Charlie).
on preview - nicely put, vaderspal. I think you’ve nicely articulated what I see in Charlie - a well intentioned f*ck up.
I truly am starting to think that all of what’s happening on the island has a logical scientific explanation. I haven’t had time to really formulate this theory into words so I’ll expound on it later. However, I will say that I don’t think the island is making people crazy. I don’t think there is some mysterious sickness either. I think what’s happening is that the situation that these people are in is forcing them to be reduced to their least common denominators.
There are none of the comforts and psychological buffers that society offers us on a daily basis and they have to reprogram their minds to function in a whole new way.
It’s sort of like having a nervous breakdown except these breakdowns are more pronounced on the island because the “society” is so small and the consequences and risks are greater.
But not just any stick. The Jesus stick.
I just grabbed those lines from this transcript that does have “You Are Everybody”, but you are right…it should be “You All Everybody”.
I don’t think so. It’s already been established that the Island has some sort of mysterious geological deposits that cause the brain to behave in strange ways. That’s why Dharma was there in the first place, to investigate all of these effects.
So far, all the strange stuff we’ve seen on the Island pretty much fits into the categories of what we know Dharma was investigating - remote viewing, telekenesis, etc. There’s also life extension. And I’m going to stick by my much earlier claim that some of the ‘others’ are actually people from the Black Rock, who stopped aging once they landed on the island. There’s several groups of ‘others’, and it wouldn’t surprise me if we find that each group is a collection of stranded people from different eras.
Anyway, we’ve had lots of hints that the island is special in terms of how it affects people. Ethan’s comment that some people weren’t ‘good enough’ to collect. Rousseau’s comment about how important it was to watch everyone because her own team began doing exactly what we’re seeing the current castaways do - become paranoid, angry, and distrustful.
I think Locke may have some understanding of this - he’s the one that had the insight that the island was going to ‘test’ them. That’s why he was so adament about hiding the guns - he knows that if they get their hands on guns, before long they’ll be shooting each other.
The island’s messing with their heads. It’s the only explanation for the radical character changes we’ve seen. Look at Jack - the guy is positively manic now. He used to be a thoughtful, cautious doctor. Now he just wants to charge around shooting at people. He’s pushing his authority, making arbitrary decisions, and not thinking through the consequences at all. The last time he went looking for Michael, the ‘others’ got the complete drop on his whole group without busting a sweat. If he had any brains he’d know that if he goes charging back in there with guns, he’ll just wind up dead. But he can’t think clearly any more.
But people seem to be affected at different rates. Hurley isn’t showing any signs of change. Neither is Sun. Interesting that they are generally the most ‘placid’ personalities. Most of the others seem to be changing, and in proportion to the various flaws they brought with them to the island.
Samstone Dammit. All your points are valid and I really have no solid argument against any of them.
Back to the drawing board.
FWIW, I just got the first season on DVD and have yet to watch it so my understanding is a bit retarded. Shoot.
That’s the single best description of most of Jack’s acting I’ve ever read. 
I’m pretty sure that Ethan mentioned that they were taking the ‘good’ ones… as if to say those left behind (AL, Eko, etc…) we’re not ‘good enough’ to take.
To clarify my thoughts on Charlie:
Charlie generally does the actions of a nice guy. He takes care of his family, he wants to take care of Claire and Aaron, he wants to generally what would be considered the right choice.
But this is because this is the sort of person he wants to view himself as.
It’s hard to explain the distinction I mean …
He’s very concerned with viewing himself as a nice guy, a guy who takes care of the people he cares for - but this is superficial. He’s willing to ignore the consequences to them or even hurt them if they get in the way of him playing that role.
He was willing to risk the safety of everyone at the camp by helping Sawyer get power. Why? Because he wanted to weaken Locke’s relationship with Claire. Locke wasn’t doing her any harm, and may even be a better close friend or even boyfriend if that’s the case than Charlie because Charlie is going nuts. But the key is that he wants to play the role of Claire and Aaron’s caretaker, and he was willing to risk making their lives worse (by giving Sawyer control) so that he could play that role.
Someone who is genuinely nice, who genuinely cares about people, is willing to suffer for them, and not possibly do them harm just so they can play the role of caretaker. Charlie’s actions look benign, but really he’s being a selfish prick.
Figured I might need to expand upon this…
Those they took actually figure into the experiments (Walt)… those that are left behind are there to fend for themselves against the Island perils and are not so much part of the Experiment(s).
Figure that the biggest thing letting the timer run out will do is to alert them that the Swan test has gone awry…IOW, they don’t know that they (the losties) are in the Hatch.
I know that BB implied that they did… but just because the BB Others know that doesn’t mean that the Other Others know that.