Lost 3.18 "D.O.C."

Cafe Society
101

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Two things, I think.

One, he’s fated to die and it’s grating on his nerves. Especially when you consider that in this case Desmond dangled Charlie in front of Fate’s Crossbow to get what he wanted.

Two, I think that Charlie (hated as he is by most of the SDMB Lost viewers) is actually trying to work things out regarding the island. He’s actually asking questions. He’s the one who said he’d been talking to other people so he knew who Mikail was, and that he was supposed to be dead.
…

-Joe
[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same about Charlie but I’d also like to add that Charlie once trusted Desmond with his life and it turns out Des almost sacrificed him for his own interest. Charlie just plain doesn’t trust Desmond anymore but then again he also wants to trust him because the guy can see when Charlie might die and maybe save him. It’s a conundrum for Charlie.

This could also be what finally takes down Charlie. Desmond warns him of possible death again, Charlie doesn’t believe him, does the opposite of what Desmond says and dies.

102

[QUOTE=John Mace]
If what Juliet says about sperm count is correct, we can expect that Kate will become pregnant soon, if she isn’t already.
[/QUOTE]
She is. Did no one else hear what Juliet said into the tape recorder?

“I should have Austen’s sample within a week.”

Or words to that effect. Juliet believes Kate to be pregnant, and from all we’ve seen we can assume she would know.

103

[QUOTE=Wile E]

This could also be what finally takes down Charlie. Desmond warns him of possible death again, Charlie doesn’t believe him, does the opposite of what Desmond says and dies.
[/QUOTE]

I hope not, because if he does he’ll be dying an asshole and then we’ll have all sorts of Dopers doing their “I told you so happy dance”.

-Joe

104

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
I hope not, because if he does he’ll be dying an asshole and then we’ll have all sorts of Dopers doing their “I told you so happy dance”.

-Joe
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don’t want to see that either. I like Charlie, well actually I like the actor and I’d like to see him stay on the show. Charlie I’m indifferent on and I keep hoping he’ll redeem himself somehow but the problem with that is redemption can sometimes be fatal on that island.

105

My hatred for Charlie is matched only by my hatred for Sun. I hope she dies a horrible, violent, bloody death. What a horrible person she is.

I really liked Charlie for about half his time on the island. Now he’s so confrontational, angry, dismissive, argumentative, and rude. Especially to Desmond, who has saved his life 4 times now. Sure, this last time was a little sketchy, but 'ole Des came through and saved his neck again (literally). How is he thanked? More accusations, anger, and 2nd guessing.

I can’t wait for both of them to die. It’ll be the best episode ever if it happens on the same episode. Or even better, at the same exact time.

106

[QUOTE=Fiver]
She is. Did no one else hear what Juliet said into the tape recorder?

“I should have Austen’s sample within a week.”

Or words to that effect. Juliet believes Kate to be pregnant, and from all we’ve seen we can assume she would know.
[/QUOTE]

I dunno. I took that to mean she will determine whether or not Kate is pregnant, not that she knows she is pregnant. I assume she is also going to try and test all the women in the camp.

107

[QUOTE=wasson]
My hatred for Charlie is matched only by my hatred for Sun. I hope she dies a horrible, violent, bloody death. What a horrible person she is.

I really liked Charlie for about half his time on the island. Now he’s so confrontational, angry, dismissive, argumentative, and rude. Especially to Desmond, who has saved his life 4 times now. Sure, this last time was a little sketchy, but 'ole Des came through and saved his neck again (literally).

[/QUOTE]

Especially, according to some theories, at the expense of getting Penny back. C’mon, Charlie, surely a ‘thank you’ wouldn’t hurt…

108

[QUOTE=wasson]
My hatred for Charlie is matched only by my hatred for Sun. I hope she dies a horrible, violent, bloody death. What a horrible person she is.
…
[/QUOTE]

But dude, she’s hot! I am so going to get my hetero chick license revoked.
I have to wonder how Juliet hopes to get a sample from Kate. Is she going to follow her in the jungle with a cup? Dig a new latrine and ask Kate to break it in? Manuipulate Sawyer into asking Kate for a golden shower then offering to sponge him off afterwards. Mmm … sponge bath for Sawyer. Oh good! I can get my hetero chick license back now!

109

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I dunno. I took that to mean she will determine whether or not Kate is pregnant, not that she knows she is pregnant. I assume she is also going to try and test all the women in the camp.
[/QUOTE]

That should be easy.

“Hey Kate, will you pee in this cup for me? It’s for totally innocent purposes, I swear.”

Oh, and I told you all that Juliet was there to look for pregnancy among the women. Hah!

-Joe

110

[QUOTE=wasson]
My hatred for Charlie is matched only by my hatred for Sun. I hope she dies a horrible, violent, bloody death. What a horrible person she is.

I really liked Charlie for about half his time on the island. Now he’s so confrontational, angry, dismissive, argumentative, and rude. Especially to Desmond, who has saved his life 4 times now. Sure, this last time was a little sketchy, but 'ole Des came through and saved his neck again (literally). How is he thanked? More accusations, anger, and 2nd guessing.

I can’t wait for both of them to die. It’ll be the best episode ever if it happens on the same episode. Or even better, at the same exact time.
[/QUOTE]

I’m curious - what did Sun do in this episode that makes you think of her as a particularly horrible person?

111

[QUOTE=Wile E]
I have to wonder how Juliet hopes to get a sample from Kate.
[/QUOTE]

I predict it will involve tranquilizers (or more gas) and a catheter, followed by Kate waking up with that not so fresh feeling. Either that or somebody will con her into admitting that she’s late.

112

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
I’m curious - what did Sun do in this episode that makes you think of her as a particularly horrible person?
[/QUOTE]

In this episode we found out a couple of things. She knows what her dad’s business really is and we learn that she is responsible for Jin becoming her dad’s enforcer.

Supposedly she did this to spare Jin the shame of learning that his mother was a prostitute and his father may not be his father. I think the harm done to Jin’s psyche from being daddy’s enforcer and being put under daddy’s thumb was worse than any shame he would have had from learning the truth about his parents. I think she was really being selfish here because it’s possible that Jin would have left her had he learned the truth about himself because he would have felt he wasn’t deserving of her. Jin was already hiding the truth about his father because he is just a poor fisherman’s son and he is ashamed of that. Later she decides to leave Jin because of what he does for her father and probably because Jin had changed and is an unhappy man, which we now know was mostly her doing.
But she’s still hot.

113

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I don’t know why none of the 4 Musketeers didn’t think: Hey, a satellite phone… The battery is dead, but let’s take it back to Sayid and see what he can do!
[/QUOTE]

The best name I’ve seen for the four is “Boy Scout Troop 108”

There’s a bit more wrong with the sat phone than a dead battery. In the brief view they showed of the display before it cut off there was a warning display saying “Internal Error”.

Of course they can take it to Sayid and let him repair it with some coconuts and bamboo. Or maybe he can find a sat phone repair kit that spontaneously generated itself in the wild.

114

It would probably be easier to get a blood sample from Kate than a urine sample. I’m picturing midnight needle jabbing in the next episode. Or an unfortunate accident that causes a lot of blood.

115

[QUOTE=C3]
It would probably be easier to get a blood sample from Kate than a urine sample. I’m picturing midnight needle jabbing in the next episode. Or an unfortunate accident that causes a lot of blood.
[/QUOTE]

Heh. Good point.

116

[QUOTE=Wile E]
In this episode we found out a couple of things. She knows what her dad’s business really is and we learn that she is responsible for Jin becoming her dad’s enforcer … [snip] … Later she decides to leave Jin because of what he does for her father and probably because Jin had changed and is an unhappy man, which we now know was mostly her doing.
[/QUOTE]
Or maybe that’s only part of it: perhaps she feels guilty for making Jin into an unhappy husband and she decided to leave him to spare both their feelings. Or maybe she just didn’t know how to handle the situation, since it’s clear that Jin is a much better man than Sun’s father – Mr. Paik was clearly more concerned about his reputation than his daughter’s happiness.

I wouldn’t say Sun is horrible – she’s flawed, like everyone else on that island. She turned her husband into an enforcer because she loved him enough to spare him the shame of his lineage; he stayed an enforcer because he loved her enough to do whatever he could to keep from losing her. It’s the stuff of Danielle Steele, perhaps, but it doesn’t make her the Wicked Witch of the East.

117

[QUOTE=Wile E]
In this episode we found out a couple of things. She knows what her dad’s business really is and we learn that she is responsible for Jin becoming her dad’s enforcer.

Supposedly she did this to spare Jin the shame of learning that his mother was a prostitute and his father may not be his father. I think the harm done to Jin’s psyche from being daddy’s enforcer and being put under daddy’s thumb was worse than any shame he would have had from learning the truth about his parents. I think she was really being selfish here because it’s possible that Jin would have left her had he learned the truth about himself because he would have felt he wasn’t deserving of her. Jin was already hiding the truth about his father because he is just a poor fisherman’s son and he is ashamed of that. Later she decides to leave Jin because of what he does for her father and probably because Jin had changed and is an unhappy man, which we now know was mostly her doing.
But she’s still hot.
[/QUOTE]
You said it better than I ever could have.

All we’ve seen from Jin is him being incredibly motivated, driven, and eager to please his wife.

His wife, on the other hand, has lied to him constantly, cheated on him, and acted nothing but selfishly and like a spoiled little brat. Jin even told her to give that money back to her father, saying he didn’t want to owe him any more than he already did. Sun acted selfishly, acted against her husband’s wishes and forced Jin into a life he absolutely hated, but was willing to do to stay with the woman he loved.

Sun thanks him by cheating, lying, and planning to run away without him.

She’s been a selfish spoiled brat since she was a small child, getting her maid fired because she didn’t want to admit her mistake. Jin on the other hand, is a great man, always acting for the “greater good”, including letting Jae Lee live, despite orders to do otherwise.

It’s clear she had no idea how to handle the situation. In that case she should have listened to her loving husband, who told her to give the money back to her father. He gave her good advice despite not knowing the whole story and despite being lied to. “I don’t want to owe him anymore than I already do”, or something like that. Jin knew what was up, but Sun, like always, took the easy way out, despite how much pain it caused the people she claimed to “love”.

118

[QUOTE=wasson]
All we’ve seen from Jin is him being incredibly motivated, driven, and eager to please his wife.

His wife, on the other hand, has lied to him constantly, cheated on him, and acted nothing but selfishly and like a spoiled little brat. Jin even told her to give that money back to her father, saying he didn’t want to owe him any more than he already did. Sun acted selfishly, acted against her husband’s wishes and forced Jin into a life he absolutely hated, but was willing to do to stay with the woman he loved.

Sun thanks him by cheating, lying, and planning to run away without him.

She’s been a selfish spoiled brat since she was a small child, getting her maid fired because she didn’t want to admit her mistake. Jin on the other hand, is a great man, always acting for the “greater good”, including letting Jae Lee live, despite orders to do otherwise. It’s clear she had no idea how to handle the situation. In that case she should have listened to her loving husband, who told her to give the money back to her father. He gave her good advice despite not knowing the whole story and despite being lied to. “I don’t want to owe him anymore than I already do”, or something like that. Jin knew what was up, but Sun, like always, took the easy way out, despite how much pain it caused the people she claimed to “love”.
[/QUOTE]

This is an example of the excellent way Lost does long-term exposition. The first impression of these two characters–even thru most of the 1st season, up to the moment Jin pushes off on the raft–was the exact opposite, but we see as we learn more about their past how their actions on the island can be interpreted quite differently.

We find then it is Sun, not Jin, who must confront the evil of their past and earn redemption. Accepting her fatal pregnancy, and even being happy about it, Sun tacitly accepts martyrdom to prove that she is a good person.

It will be interesting to see if/how Jin reacts when he learns the fate of pregnant women on the island. Jin’s values have been tested throughout his time on the island, as his outsider presence leads folks to automatically assign him the worst motives. Though I’ve seen his nobility grow throughout the season, I really don’t know how he would react when Sun (obviously) tells him she will be keeping the baby, even if it means she must die. This, perhaps, will be his ultimate character test.

119

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

It will be interesting to see if/how Jin reacts when he learns the fate of pregnant women on the island. Jin’s values have been tested throughout his time on the island, as his outsider presence leads folks to automatically assign him the worst motives. Though I’ve seen his nobility grow throughout the season, I really don’t know how he would react when Sun (obviously) tells him she will be keeping the baby, even if it means she must die. This, perhaps, will be his ultimate character test.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you can see it that way, but I see it as just more of Sun’s selfishness.

Unless she really believes that “this fetus will be different”, she’s going to let herself die just so she can feel better about herself.

-Joe

120

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
I don’t remember - did Juliet even tell Sun that’s what they were doing before Sun let her lead her out to capture/dismemberment/death/ultrasound?
[/QUOTE]

I think Juliet told her that their objective was the D.O.C. on the way.

Perhaps he had something to live for.
“Death cannot stop true love – all it can do is delay it for a while.”

(Or maybe it was for a nice MLT… ;))