Lost 3.20: "The Man Behind the Curtain"

Cafe Society
181

[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
At what point did Ben steal Danielle’s baby, Alex, and raise her as his daughter?
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I’ve been wondering about this too, and I think that the part we’re missing in Ben’s life is very, very important. As I mentioned, he’d better not die, because with that information, we’ll learn a lot of his motivations. Someone mentioned that it was possible that Annie died giving birth to his child, in which case his taking Alex would make a weird sort of sense. Can you imagine the irony there: Ben misses his child, takes Alex. Rousseau misses her daughter, takes Aaron.

[QUOTE=RikWriter]
The voices are ghosts, just like Jacob except not as powerful. The Smoke Monster is a collective being composed of the trapped spirits of the evil…perhaps the crew of the slave ship. The same thing about the island that makes some people heal and some people ressurrect also traps the spirits of some people on the island after death.
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This point of view is upheld by the “Whisper Transcripts,” some of which are found here, which also includes links to all of the others. These transcripts are part of what lead me to believe from an early point in the show that the island, while maybe not being purgatory, heaven or hell, has a connection to the dead, and the dead can still, in a fashion, live on the island. Look at Boone, who came back to aid John Locke. I take that as actually being Boone’s, not just the drug’s, doing, the drug was a gateway to receiving him, just as being special can be a gateway to receiving the whispers. It will be interesting to hear what comes up when they transcribe these whispers, perhaps more clues about Ben’s life and the island.

182

Now that I’m actually watching the show (had to download it since my return home has been delayed another goddamned day) I’ve got something that seems not to have been mentioned…

Ben’s mom was hanging out on the outside of the fence. Maybe the actual purpose of the fence is to keep ghosts out?

Her appearance at the window could be some sort of wishful thinking.

Oh, and can someone tell me how Juliet’s other side of the tape exonerates her in any way whatsoever? The only thing they learned was some specifics (marking the tents) after they already knew the generals (pregnant women, a raid in three days).

The code for the fence was 54439. Any importance? And Ben sure do love torturing bunnies.

I agree with the “birthday” comment and Batmanuel’s looks that he has definitely had slow aging of some kind. On the other hand, not every clue on the show can mean something - since on, Patricide Day, Ben had grey chest hair. :slight_smile:

What’s the deal with Ben talking about his “having to be purged”? Did we see any evidence of that, or do we assume that has something to do with Annie? Regarding the pit of bodies, am I the first one to notice that one of them had what looked to be a very obvious bullet wound in the head?

Finally, I’m willing to bet pretty heavily that the trouble with pregnancy began on that day - there’s some sort of sympathetic psychic resonance going on. Ben is the most powerful psychic on the island, so the island obeys his subconscious. His daddy issues forced him, once he’d killed dad, to invent a new “dad” - Jacob. Jacob isn’t Ben’s split personality, instead it’s the psychic personification of the World’s Shittiest Dad.

So, do you think Ben drove dad out there to give dad a chance to not be a total asshole and perhaps spare his life?

-Joe

183

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
So, do you think Ben drove dad out there to give dad a chance to not be a total asshole and perhaps spare his life?
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I don’t know about this. Ben’s dad seemed to really want to change. I think it was more of the lifelong hatred from his dad because of the death of his mom.

184

[QUOTE=Argen]
I don’t know about this. Ben’s dad seemed to really want to change. I think it was more of the lifelong hatred from his dad because of the death of his mom.
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I mean, the Ben-killing-his-dad seemed more because of the horrid childhood he had, instead of Roger failing to “redeem himself.”

Sorry for the double post, I don’t have edit :frowning:

185

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Oh, and can someone tell me how Juliet’s other side of the tape exonerates her in any way whatsoever? The only thing they learned was some specifics (marking the tents) after they already knew the generals (pregnant women, a raid in three days).

[/QUOTE]

I think Jack just wanted to hear what Ben’s plan was. He tried to explain that Juliet had confessed to him after the B-side was played. He’s going to try to win back the Losties’ confidence by coming up with a plan.

No.

186

[QUOTE=Argen]
I mean, the Ben-killing-his-dad seemed more because of the horrid childhood he had, instead of Roger failing to “redeem himself.”

Sorry for the double post, I don’t have edit :frowning:
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I didn’t mean it that way so much as “Here’s one last chance to apologize before I pull the trigger, dad.”

In that case, I assume that it will involve everyone running away except for Strike Force Bait who will overcome the more numerous and better armed others through sheer surprise. Except they’ll be the ones surprised.

-Joe

187

[QUOTE=N9IWP]
What was Horace’s job (on his coveralls)? Manager?

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Yes, I missed that also. Anyone? :confused:

188

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Yes, I missed that also. Anyone? :confused:
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It’s an M word and it’s too long to be manager.

I want to say either “maintenance” or “mathematician(!)”. I only downloaded the regular rather than HDTV one.

ETA: I double-checked the ‘Killer Nosebleed’ scene and it definitely starts with “Mathem” so it’s either gotta be “Mathematics” or “Mathematician”.

-Joe

189

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
I didn’t mean it that way so much as “Here’s one last chance to apologize before I pull the trigger, dad.”
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Oh, okay, misunderstood. :smack:

190

Re: the body pit:

  1. Roger’s body was skeletal under similar environmental conditions. The pit bodies seemed less decayed than that. There must be a good screencap out there; I’m probably misremembering.

  2. There is only one good reason to leave a mass grave open–you’re planning on making some additional deposits.

  3. Why are there so many bodies in there? Wouldn’t island wildlife have taken many away?

  4. Why not burn the bodies instead? Isn’t that what they did with what’s her name?

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
In that case, I assume that it will involve everyone running away except for Strike Force Bait who will overcome the more numerous and better armed others through sheer surprise. Except they’ll be the ones surprised.
[/QUOTE]

from the previews it looks like it involves blowing the shit out of some Others with the dynamite Danielle grabbed during her chat with Locke. Nevertheless, your last sentence seems like a good bet.

191

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
4. Why not burn the bodies instead? Isn’t that what they did with what’s her name?

[/QUOTE]

She was One Of Them, not one of Them, if you catch my drift.

-Joe

192

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
She was One Of Them, not one of Them, if you catch my drift.

-Joe
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Scary thing is: I do.

Still, it seems more expedient and less smelly in the long run. Of course, do we know how far the body pit is from camp DHARMA?

193

So, is the circle of ash (I don’t believe it’s volcanic) keeping everyone safe from Jacob, or keeping Jacob safe from The Voices?

-Joe

194

Oh, and for those who missed the parallel/joke…

Ben followed the white rabbit. :smack:

-Joe

195

[QUOTE=AuntiePam]
Speculation about Richard not aging – couldn’t it be something as simple as the producers not being able to find an actor who looked like young Richard, and just changing his hair length and facial hair? I’ve known people (especially non-smokers) who didn’t noticeably age much in 15-20 years.
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The time difference between that point and the post-crash events isn’t 15-20 years, it’s more like 30, and possibly 35. Ben’s arrival on the island is consistent with the late 60’s or early 70’s in terms of how people dressed, the vehicles they were using, and the general feel of the entire Dharma scene (Namaste!) We know the current-day events are occurring in late 2004, because specific dates and events (George Bush re-elected, Red Sox winning World Series) have been mentioned.

196

[QUOTE=RickJay]
The time difference between that point and the post-crash events isn’t 15-20 years, it’s more like 30, and possibly 35. Ben’s arrival on the island is consistent with the late 60’s or early 70’s in terms of how people dressed, the vehicles they were using, and the general feel of the entire Dharma scene (Namaste!) We know the current-day events are occurring in late 2004, because specific dates and events (George Bush re-elected, Red Sox winning World Series) have been mentioned.
[/QUOTE]

And, if you want to get ultra-picky (ie. Lostpedia), Ben had an Indiglo when he killed his father, which weren’t available till 1992. So, 25 years is a fair guess.

-Joe

197

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
I have heard a variation on this sentiment a few times since last night, and I wanted to ask: what would constitute a “purpose” for which a given character would be killed off? Because dramatically, I think Locke’s death (if he’s dead, and I hope he is, although I love the character; it will cheapen the story if he survives) was not just purposeful, it was dramatically necessary.

Look, here’s a man who has lost all of his humility. Told over and over (mostly by Ben, who we know is a liar and a manipulator) that he is “special,” that he has a communion with the island, he becomes cocky, reckless. He abandons a camp filled with people that he knows are on his side to go join a group of folks who - their protestations notwithstanding - are murderers and armed to the teeth. He places his trust in Ben, in spite of the fact that Ben is a proven skilled liar who forced Locke to have someone murdered to get his Others Club Card. He strolls into Other camp unarmed, makes dramatic demands, utterly ignores Ben’s repeated warnings that insisting to see Jacob is unwise and potentially dangerous. He bullies and beats up a former member of the Soviet Army who he already killed once, just to get his way. Any warning sign, any danger sign, he blows past without a pause. Ben’s obvious increasing anger and fear of Locke go unnoticed by the latter. Locke has been so thoroughly convinced that he is “special,” and therefore untouchable, that he takes risks that a reasonable person simply would not take.

When you walk up to a man like Ben on his own turf and bully him, then follow him out in the woods alone, ignoring his warnings and protestations, then call him pathetic and insane, you are very nearly asking to end up where Locke ended up.

The purpose his death serves, I think, is to establish (or to continue demonstrating) that in this world, actions have consequences, that you can’t walk away from the support of one society and then browbeat your way into another without accepting that it might not work. Locke decided that he was so special that he could demand what he wanted without working with anyone else. What’s it Jack always says? Live together, die alone? Well, Locke made his choice.
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A) Because Locke was pretty stupid. He knew Ben couldn’t be trusted and Ben just confessed to being a mass murderer, so he turns his back to him? Sure he was arrogant but I thought his stupidity at that point way too convenient.

B) The other reason I gave. We were thisclose to an answer or two and then they (possibly) get rid of the guy who’s looking for the answers. The guy who, in that respect, is like us. It aggravates me.

198

Horex Goodspeed’s job was “mathematician” as far as I could see.

199

[QUOTE=Wile E]
A) Because Locke was pretty stupid. He knew Ben couldn’t be trusted and Ben just confessed to being a mass murderer, so he turns his back to him? Sure he was arrogant but I thought his stupidity at that point way too convenient.
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Two things -

First, how did Ben get the gun?

Second, Locke had to know, because when he realized what Ben was saying he went for his knife and not his gun. So, WTF?

-Joe

200

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Oh, and can someone tell me how Juliet’s other side of the tape exonerates her in any way whatsoever? The only thing they learned was some specifics (marking the tents) after they already knew the generals (pregnant women, a raid in three days).
[/quote]

Well, it doesn’t. Although there’s really no way she could already know what was on the other side – other than that it would be Ben’s next orders (which she couldn’t have heard yet). That tape never made it back to the medical station, because Locke swiped it.

No – I think Ben had already decided to gas him no matter what. Because at that one moment, his dad (however weakly) was actually trying to not be a total asshole, for the first time in his life it seems. As for “here’s one last chance to apologize before I pull the trigger” – I don’t think Ben really cared either way at that point.

Who you talking about?