LOST 6.15 "Across the Sea"

[Rachael_Rage]

@Unauthorized_Cinnamon

Look, it’s not the fact that there’s magical unexplained shit that bothers me. What bothers me is that the magical unexplained shit has been:
a.) framed with bad storytelling
b.) used by the producers to string viewers along as though these things were mysteries that might be figured out and would be eventually revealed.

Oh, believe me I’ve been frustrated as hale with the storytelling sometimes, but it seems to me that the ‘dropping of mysteries to be figured out’ is really something that the viewers have imposed upon the show, not the producers. I mean, who ever promised that the enormous list of questions and mysteries would *ever *be addressed in a concrete way? Well, OK, there were a few times when a character said “If you do this for me I’ll tell you everything you want to know, but we have to leave, NOW!” and then they conveniently forget to have that conversation. :rolleyes: But really it seems to me that the producers and writers were never very interested in explaining anything, much less everything - the point seems to be more in exploring how people react to uncertainty (faith vs. reason), which couldn’t be better carried through to the reactions of people who watch the show. We’re all one big Dharma experiment, yo!

So, yeah, quibble with the pacing and emotional resonance of the story telling, but answers - whether woo-woo or otherwise - are not the point.

@Unauthorized_Cinnamon

As for Jin, that is a great example of very elementary bad storytelling. If you’re writing a poignant scene full of human emotion, you want the audience to connect with it and feel what the characters are feeling. If there’s a reaction that many if not most people would have in that situation, you have to address it. They could have maneuvered Jin into staying, but they should have done it by addressing and disposing of the “what about our daughter” issue, not ignoring it.

I feel like people are making too big a thing of this. Why should the writers be obligated to have Jin and Sun discuss their daughter (who he’d never met) in the 20 seconds remaining of their life together?

Sun: Just go! Think about Je-Yeon!
Jin: Who? Oh right. Well, see, here’s the thing. I actually KNOW you, and I have missed you for years and years and I’ve finally just seen you again, I don’t love the idea of letting you die here alone and terrified. Plus, chances are pretty slim I’ll swim out of here alive anyway, and even so, I have no idea if I’ll ever get back ‘home’ or whether it will be 30 years in the past or eighty years in the future and considering that YOU left our daughter with a baby sitter to come find me when YOU had no real way of knowing you’d be able to return kind of makes me think I’m better off dying here with you, because, seriously, that kid’s gonna be messed up either way.
Sun: glug

This show has often been about economy of words and not saying too much (often to a maddening extent) so adding even a few words about the kid they’re leaving behind just to make the audience feel better rings untrue to me. The writers knew completely that people would react that way, but they wanted to tell the story their way and that’s what we got. Chances are we’ll have a lot more to complain about in the next 3.5 hours as well.

[MsWhatsit]

They could have handled it with a line or two of dialogue:

Sun: Think of Ji-Yeon!
Jin: No, I promised not to leave you and I won’t.

You don’t need a huge long explanation; just an acknowledgment of the situation, so that while watching this supposedly emotional scene, your viewers aren’t all distracted by thinking, “Hey, did they forget about the kid, or what?” That’s assuming that the viewers even care in the first place about these characters, of course.

[Wheelz]

@middleman

Of course, that’s the danger of a fanboy type show. You spend years trying to figure it out, and there is a huge chance you’ll like one of your versions better.

This, QFT, +1, and all that.

People are upset because what they already decided they knew is not being confirmed.

Me, I’m in the along-for-the-ride camp, and I’m enjoying what we’ve been getting so far this season (and I still have faith that we’ll get a satisfying conclusion, BTW. This week’s episode was not the conclusion).

I’m also not studying every interview the show’s creators have ever done so I can call them “liars” and “pricks” because they said A to the guy from TV Guide 3 years ago but then did B in last week’s episode. Really, I don’t give a fuck. The show is the show.

There, I feel better now. Carry on.

[SenorBeef]

@Wheelz

People are upset because what they already decided they knew is not being confirmed.

Nothing is being confirmed or denied. It’s all being handwaved away without any real attempt at explanation. You’d have to have an actual answer before you were upset that it wasn’t what you were expecting. What we’re getting is just a very long version of “it’s complicated… a wizard did it!”

[Rachael_Rage]

@MsWhatsit

They could have handled it with a line or two of dialogue:

Sun: Think of Ji-Yeon!
Jin: No, I promised not to leave you and I won’t.

You don’t need a huge long explanation; just an acknowledgment of the situation, so that while watching this supposedly emotional scene, your viewers aren’t all distracted by thinking, “Hey, did they forget about the kid, or what?” That’s assuming that the viewers even care in the first place about these characters, of course.

YMMV and I’m sure it would have satisfied a lot more people. The point being that the writers and producers deliberately didn’t address it. It’s not like they forgot or thought anyone else would forget - they just didn’t want to shoehorn in that stuff into the scene, so they didn’t. I don’t think they should write the show anticipating viewers’ potential distractions, questions or ‘WTF’-ness. I mean, why start now?

[Hampshire]

@Wheelz

Me, I’m in the along-for-the-ride camp, and I’m enjoying what we’ve been getting so far this season (and I still have faith that we’ll get a satisfying conclusion, BTW. This week’s episode was not the conclusion).

I can get behind this somewhat but when all is said and done and the question arises “Would you recommend this series (all 70+ hours of it) to someone who had never seen it?” what would your answer be?
If you were watching the entire series through again with someone who had never seen it how would you respond to their reaction to the shows?
Them: “Wow, that was a really compelling season 2 episode! They sure seemed to put a lot of emphasis on “x” aspect of the island. Very interesting, I think I’ll continue watching to find out what “x” is all about.”
You: “Well, they never really get around to telling you what “x” means. Actually after this episode they just kind of drop it. It’s not really important to the whole story anyway so don’t dwell on anything you just watched. It was a fun episode though wasn’t it?”

[Bearflag70]

If a circle of ash around a cabin in a rain forest was my only defense, I’d have that circle lined with concrete and steel.

[Lobohan]

I was skimming the thread and clicked on some things I thought I had an answer for. It does surprise me how many sandy vaginas this episode made. Just because the writers aren’t going with your idea, doesn’t mean they’re stupid. These people know what they’re doing and this episode answered a lot of questions. I love that MiB and Mommy were Adam and Eve. That we see the Cave of McGuffinite for the first time. The wells, the wheel and the knife… all were explained. We understand that Smocke didn’t ask for this, and Jacob cursed his brother because of his rage. Now 2000 years later their hate/love/guilt has been pulling at them to where they are in the present day (or at least 2007). Awesome episode.

@Jihi

I liked Jacob, I really did. I thought the actor did a fantastic job in earlier episodes dealing with Esau, Ben, Hurley, and others. He seemed a wise figure fully in control of his situation, even with Ben. That fit the show’s mythology. I don’t buy that the Jacob we saw tonight is the same character.

Are you the same emotionally as you were 2000 years ago?

I hated that. I want to believe that Jacob is good and that Smokey is a real threat to humanity. But right now… It looks like Jacob lucked into his position through ridiculous naivete and Esau had to die because he was inquisitive. I really don’t like that supposition.

What does it matter, if he’s a threat to humanity now? Whatever happened to Smocke, he’s now tied to the island (after critical MacGuffinite exposure), and if he leaves it will cause some trouble. It doesn’t matter if he willingly took up that burden or not. In fact it makes it more tragic, he’s not even a villain, or rather he wasn’t. He got infected with immortality and a tie to the island against his will. I love that he’s nuanced and even though he’s the big-bad, he’s still just a guy who wants to go home and can’t because of Jacob’s fit of rage. (I’d also say he was justified in killing Mommy, she did murder hundreds of people).

@Omniscient

Here’s a few random questions.

Was Mommie Dearest able to draw the pregnant woman to the island intentionally, in the same way the Jacob is able to bring Richard and the Losties to the island? Or was that just happenstance?

I got the idea that she didn’t, although that would be pretty cool.

If Mommie Dearest did lure the pregnant woman to the island was it a surprise to her that there were twins? Seemed like it, but the rest of the episode certainly seemed like she had a grand plan for the two of them.

It seemed to me she had been guardian of the island for some long time, and was excited at the thought of having a couple of kids to raise to take over for her. She wanted it to be MiB because he was the clever one. Jacob was timid and wouldn’t lie. And we know from direct example that sometimes the guardian of the island is required to do horrible things like kill innocent women.

Why did MD decide that Esau was the chosen one at first? Why was he special?

Maybe she chose him because he was special. We know that the island chooses people, or perhaps that some people resonate with the island. Waaalt or Locke for instance.

Esau seemed to have an innate ability to understand things, as noted in his knowing how to the play the game without instructions. Does this imply that he’s special in that he can “know” things magically or that he’s just manipulative enough to get Jacob playing his version of Calvinball?

I think he was really smart so he figured out what it must have been.

Did Jacob violate the rules when he “killed” Esau by shoving him into the White Light?

My guess is the rules weren’t in play then. Jacob beat MiB’s face pretty bad. I think it might be that the rules are actually something they choose to adhere to out of a sense of honor, or respect for their mother. Even MiB seemed to love her.

Why would Esau be allowed to kill MD? When do the rules protecting candidates and chosen ones apply?

Well, he didn’t kill him directly. He pushed him into a room that killed him.

Were the Shipwrecked folks really truly evil? Is that simply Esau seeing the evil in everyone? Did they become evil because Esau was among them? Were they lured to the island because they were evil? Are they just normal people and Esau sees them as evil simply because of his Blue Lagoon upbringing?

It seems to me like the latter. Jacob is really timid and everyone cuts their mom some slack.

How did MD collapse the hole and wipe out the Shipwreckies? Does she have special powers? Does she have Smoke monster powers too or what?

Maybe it will be revealed. Maybe she has another version of the “Others” that Jacob and MiB didn’t know about. In more recent times Jacob lived apart from the others and only got approached on occasion. Maybe MD did the same, but had a population of people she could call on?

Does Esau go back and rebuild the donkey wheel at a later date with help from a new batch of people lured to the island? Did he just dig out the original one and finish it?

I think that’s what they’re implying.

In Season one in “House of the Rising Sun” when Jack, Kate and Locke discover the cave we see that the skeletons of Adam and Eve are in different tombs. Here they show Jacob putting them together in one. Simple continuity error or does this imply that somehow Esau’s body is moved?

I didn’t remember that. I thought they were side by side.

What’s special about that Jesus Juice that Jacob drank? Earlier this season we saw Jacob give some to Richard, presumably that’s what gave him his immortality. MD says that Esau and Jacob were immortal before that though, did MD giving Jacob the wine do something different than when Richard got it? Was Esau breaking the wine bottle on the log significant beyond symbolism? Can Jacob make more magic wine whenever he wants?

The mother said they would never have to worry about death, that’s the sort of thing that mothers say to kids. She may have been planning to turn over the reins to MiB, so she honestly expected him to be immortal too.

@Rachael_Rage

YMMV and I’m sure it would have satisfied a lot more people. The point being that the writers and producers deliberately didn’t address it. It’s not like they forgot or thought anyone else would forget - they just didn’t want to shoehorn in that stuff into the scene, so they didn’t. I don’t think they should write the show anticipating viewers’ potential distractions, questions or ‘WTF’-ness. I mean, why start now?

I think that scene was great because they didn’t mention it. You know they were both thinking it. But it went without saying that Jin wasn’t going to leave her again. Sun wasn’t being out of character, and they both knew they had a daughter. It was great.

[Wheelz]

@Hampshire

I can get behind this somewhat but when all is said and done and the question arises “Would you recommend this series (all 70+ hours of it) to someone who had never seen it?” what would your answer be?

Keep in mind that it’s not over yet, but unless the ending really blows – and I’m still holding out that it won’t – then yes, I most likely would recommend it.

@Hampshire

If you were watching the entire series through again with someone who had never seen it how would you respond to their reaction to the shows?
Them: “Wow, that was a really compelling season 2 episode! They sure seemed to put a lot of emphasis on “x” aspect of the island. Very interesting, I think I’ll continue watching to find out what “x” is all about.”
You: “Well, they never really get around to telling you what “x” means. Actually after this episode they just kind of drop it. It’s not really important to the whole story anyway so don’t dwell on anything you just watched. It was a fun episode though wasn’t it?”

I think you’d have to define “x” for me to give a real answer to this question. I think most of the mysteries from earlier seasons have been explained – just not in the excruciating detail that many people were hoping for, and I’m really OK with that. I might hint to this hypothetical viewer that he won’t be spoon-fed all the answers, but to keep an eye on the big picture. Again, though, it’s not over yet. A whole lot could happen in the next 3.5 hours.

And nothing’s wrong with a “fun episode.” I like fun.

[SenorBeef]

@Lobohan

I was skimming the thread and clicked on some things I thought I had an answer for. It does surprise me how many sandy vaginas this episode made.

I’m actually surprised too. This is about normal for my low level of expectation for the show, but it seems to me that mostly everyone else who likes the show gobbles this stuff up. So I was surprised to see so much dissapointment.

Just because the writers aren’t going with your idea, doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

As I said a few posts ago, they’d have to go with some actual idea idea in order for it to contradict what we’re hoping it would be. Instead, they’re just kicking the can down the road a few more inches. Why does Jacob say mysterious stuff about how the island works? Well, his psuedo-mom just told him mysterious stuff about how it works. Maybe we can have a flashback to the guardian before her and he can tell her mysterious stuff. Even more answers!

These people know what they’re doing and this episode answered a lot of questions.

Like what? Is “the reason the island is special because of a mysterious cave light” really an answer or does it just push the can down the road a bit?

I love that MiB and Mommy were Adam and Eve.

Why? I mean, how is that more interesting than any other 2 random people they could’ve crammed in?

That we see the Cave of McGuffinite for the first time. The wells, the wheel and the knife… all were explained.

The wells - ok. The wheel? How is that explained? Both from the perspective of how MiB figured it out (“uh… I just know stuff. It’s complicated. A wizard did it.”) to how tapping into mysterious light can cause time travel. The dagger? It doesn’t really explain how it’s imbued with magical properties but I don’t really think it’s a big mystery so I don’t care so much.

[middleman]

@Lobohan

It does surprise me how many sandy vaginas this episode made.

I would like to combine your “sandy vagina” comparison with my “fart in church” to form some type of “sandblasting queef” insult.

@Rachael_Rage

Maybe I’m wrong, but I thought Darlton were explicit in saying that both timelines are completely and equally real. That says ‘parallel’ rather than ‘alternate’ to me. In fact I think they strenuously object to calling the Sideways “alternate.”

@Wheelz

I’m also not studying every interview the show’s creators have ever done so I can call them “liars” and “pricks” because they said A to the guy from TV Guide 3 years ago but then did B in last week’s episode. Really, I don’t give a fuck. The show is the show.
There, I feel better now. Carry on.

I just wanted to put these two posts side by side. I stopped paying attention to anything the producers said about forward looking concepts long ago. They have had to play a game of cat and mouse to keep the mystery/show alive. I can respect that. The only time I trusted them, and they have proven reliable, is when they confirm a specific plot point (like “X” really died).

What is sad now is reading all their interviews, you get the impression that the fan reaction/pressure is getting to them. They have been SO fan friendly for SO long, that they genuinely seem hurt at the negative buzz. I hope they don’t grow bitter and disassociate themselves from the work. Despite any bumps at the end, I have loved this show for six years like no other show since the heyday of the Simpsons.

[GrandWino]

@SenorBeef

The wells - ok. The wheel? How is that explained? Both from the perspective of how MiB figured it out (“uh… I just know stuff. It’s complicated. A wizard did it.”) to how tapping into mysterious light can cause time travel. The dagger? It doesn’t really explain how it’s imbued with magical properties but I don’t really think it’s a big mystery so I don’t care so much.

To be fair to the MiB, he didn’t say that he figured it out. He said that among his people there were men who were very intelligent that were curious about how things work, and that they came up with the idea of how to harness the island’s energy.

[Lobohan]

@SenorBeef

I’m actually surprised too. This is about normal for my low level of expectation for the show, but it seems to me that mostly everyone else who likes the show gobbles this stuff up. So I was surprised to see so much dissapointment.

You are of course, free to stop watching it if you think it is beneath you.

As I said a few posts ago, they’d have to go with some actual idea idea in order for it to contradict what we’re hoping it would be. Instead, they’re just kicking the can down the road a few more inches. Why does Jacob say mysterious stuff about how the island works? Well, his psuedo-mom just told him mysterious stuff about how it works. Maybe we can have a flashback to the guardian before her and he can tell her mysterious stuff. Even more answers!

Well we know, if we trust Mommy, that the stuff at the center of the island, if taken will negatively effect all humanity.

Like what? Is “the reason the island is special because of a mysterious cave light” really an answer or does it just push the can down the road a bit?

It seems like it’s a font of something that the world needs. Let me ask, would you have preferred they don’t have a reveal for the ending?

Why? I mean, how is that more interesting than any other 2 random people they could’ve crammed in?

Because it shows the backstory behind Jacob and MiB. This episode was a good story and it answered questions people have had forever, that it didn’t answer enough for you is evident. I’m just saying you’re being unreasonable.

The wells - ok. The wheel? How is that explained? Both from the perspective of how MiB figured it out (“uh… I just know stuff. It’s complicated. A wizard did it.”) to how tapping into mysterious light can cause time travel.

The island has had special people who’ve had insights from the first season. MiB had 30 years to understand the island and its effects. There were also smart dudes among the humans on the island. Maybe there were psychics, or powerful mystics (like Locke) who understood the island’s mojo, or thought they did.

Were you pissed off when Luke used the force to shoot the Death Star vent? They didn’t go into how that worked either.

The dagger? It doesn’t really explain how it’s imbued with magical properties but I don’t really think it’s a big mystery so I don’t care so much.

I don’t think it’s necessarily magic, but even if it were it would could be because it killed Mommy. If not it could just have been message from Jacob’s followers to Smocke, what better way to kill him than to use the knife Smocke had used to kill their mother?

[Skott]

Came across this at http://mirrormattermoon.blogspot.com/ . Interesting, considered it was written a couple months ago. Not entirely accurate, but interesting.

Mar. 25. Jacob/Esau backstory — Draft 1

A ship from the Roman Empire marooned on the dark island — though it wasn’t the first. Surviving were a mother, her twin sons, and possibly some of the crew.

The dark island, indeed the dark side of the universe, is home to a dark — malevolent, from our perspective — immaterial “energy.” The mother was “claimed” by it, went crazy, and either abused one of her sons (Esau) or killed herself.

In a ritual that should occur again, Esau and Jacob replaced prior personifications of the dark and light energy (the latter of which is associated with our side). In a sense, they were fused with distilled concentrations of the energy. With his new destructive power, Esau went on a vengeful killing spree and divulged his desire to continue off the island (on our side).

To stop Esau, Jacob killed him (or had him killed). In an immaterial form, the darkness cannot escape to the light side through the wormhole connections that the island provides. Jacob’s own life-supportive “light” power enables him to refuse granting life to Esau, preventing him from resuming material form and escaping.

Foreseeing his eventual death, Jacob launched two strategies to avert disaster after his demise. One was to persaude Esau that he is wrong to think the rest of humanity is as corrupted as their mother. And for the other, he sought a replacement — someone who would be able, willing, and present at the time of his demise — to continue denying Esau access to a living form.

But eventually Jacob appreciated that there are only two more permanent solutions: Sever the link (destroy the wormhole connections) or engineer a bond between the next replacements that would counteract the opposition inherent in their roles.

I haven’t read the blog entirely, but with this last episode the writer’s given up on the idea that the island is made of mirror matter. I hold out… in faith

[Merijeek]

@SenorBeef

I’m actually surprised too. This is about normal for my low level of expectation for the show, but it seems to me that mostly everyone else who likes the show gobbles this stuff up. So I was surprised to see so much dissapointment.

This part is easy. A good chunk of the disappointment you’re used to comes from your being cynical. Those who felt otherwise up until now were those who thought that there would, in fact, be an actual explanation. They were holding out hope until now. You’d given it up earlier.

@SenorBeef

The wells - ok. The wheel? How is that explained? Both from the perspective of how MiB figured it out (“uh… I just know stuff. It’s complicated. A wizard did it.”) to how tapping into mysterious light can cause time travel. The dagger? It doesn’t really explain how it’s imbued with magical properties but I don’t really think it’s a big mystery so I don’t care so much.

And that’s my bitch. The really did go straight from “What is the ocean made of” to “A wizard did it”.

-Joe

[Red_Barchetta]

@Rachael_Rage

This show has often been about economy of words and not saying too much (often to a maddening extent) so adding even a few words about the kid they’re leaving behind just to make the audience feel better rings untrue to me. The writers knew completely that people would react that way, but they wanted to tell the story their way and that’s what we got. Chances are we’ll have a lot more to complain about in the next 3.5 hours as well.

It’s bad storytelling because they allowed themselves to get themselves into that situation. Were the writers to have any amount of foresight, they could have solved this dilemma in one of myriad ways. But as is, Jin and Sun just come across as terrible, self-centered parents.

With that said, I still thought that scene was moving…until it was totally undermined by my realization that they HAVE A KID.

[Saint_Cad]

A lot of people have been discussing the answers or lack thereof to the mysteries. I don’t think that’s what has people frustrated. Look at the plot that was supposedly planned from the beginning.

Some people crash on an island with EM pockets and this mysterious DHARMA group and numbers connecting them all.

And a kid from the plane has special gifts

But there are others on the island too led by Richard who seem to be anti-DHARMA and Special K(id) leaves

And some guy named Widmore is very interested in the island which can disappear

And the person in charge is this guy named Jacob who advises Richard and the smoke monster wants to leave but he has to kill Jacob to do it.

And the DHARMAites are dead anyways and the Others aren’t really the major players. And the women can’t bring babies to term but don’t worry about that.

“So I can forget about Widmore too?”

No! He’s battling the smoke monster. Oh and some people in a temple are afraid of the smoke monster so you know he’s bad.

“So why did Nameless kill Jacob”

See, there was this lady on the island and a cave full of light …

[Lobohan]

@Saint_Cad

A lot of people have been discussing the answers or lack thereof to the mysteries. I don’t think that’s what has people frustrated. Look at the plot that was supposedly planned from the beginning.

Some people crash on an island with EM pockets and this mysterious DHARMA group and numbers connecting them all.

And a kid from the plane has special gifts

But there are others on the island too led by Richard who seem to be anti-DHARMA and Special K(id) leaves

And some guy named Widmore is very interested in the island which can disappear

And the person in charge is this guy named Jacob who advises Richard and the smoke monster wants to leave but he has to kill Jacob to do it.

And the DHARMAites are dead anyways and the Others aren’t really the major players. And the women can’t bring babies to term but don’t worry about that.

“So I can forget about Widmore too?”

No! He’s battling the smoke monster. Oh and some people in a temple are afraid of the smoke monster so you know he’s bad.

“So why did Nameless kill Jacob”

See, there was this lady on the island and a cave full of light …

You can explain any complicated plot like that by ignoring sections of it and picking specifics to sound weird.

The plot:
A group of people crash on an island. The island has supernatural qualities. Another group lead by the island’s protector, Jacob is attempting to defend it from a malevolent creature, the MiB. The island and perhaps the world will be destroyed if the creature escapes.

The crash survivors are all connected and one of them will take over as the island’s protector.

ZOMG!! it’s too complicated!!!11one

[Merijeek]

@Lobohan

You can explain any complicated plot like that by ignoring sections of it and picking specifics to sound weird.

Sure, but why can’t Smokey leave the island? Because notmom said so because the light (may or may not have) said so.

Has he TRIED to leave the island? Can he not leave it because a religious fanatic(s) (mom, Jacob’s Others) fuck(s) it up every time, or did he try to fly away and snap back like a big black rubber band?

We don’t know, we’re just told he can’t leave.

-Joe

[ekweizn]

@HelloNinja

I just saw an interview w/ Darlton and Cuse [snip]

@train_scurvy

[snip]its not your story, its Cartlon + Cuse’s story[snip]

Nitpick: The show-runners are named Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. Darlton is the "Brangelina"esque contraction of their names.