Is there any chance that Ben could have been making the lists by himself all along and just lying about Jacob creating them? I don’t remember the circumstances surrounding any of the quoted conversations.
If so, the motivations for the kidnappings would have to be his own as well. Maybe he wanted to take whom he considered the most good natured or docile survivors because he thought they would more easily be integrated into Other society.
SAWYER was on the list. As was Kate and Anna Lucia and Mr. Eko.
Those guys…or Frogurt and Steve/Scott (who weren’t)
Which is more good natured and docile to you? 
While we’re at it, the lists came from Jacob via Richard who certainly wasn’t lying about where he got them from.
No one other than Ben and Richard themselves were likely to know which orders were passed from Jacob to Richard to Ben and what Ben made up himself. As we saw from the Alex kidnapping, Ben is quite happy to presume to speak for the morals and motives of Jacob despite never having met him.
Are we sure that was intentional characterization, or is it possible that was sloppy writing / retcon?
Yeah, there’s no good way to reconcile that retcon. Maybe MIB appeared as some other dead person to Richard and told him he was an agent of Jacob and gave him lists to give to Ben. Or maybe Jacob got more proactive as he reached the end of his list of candidates.
The Hostiles are The Others (they lived on the island before the Dharma people came). They were ‘recruited’ by Jacob, via Richard, to come to the island from the outside world, none of them were born there. That’s how Juliette came to the island. As to how long this has been going on - who knows? How old is Jacob? - that long.
Ethan was born on The Island.
Has anyone come up with a satisfactory fanwank why the island was shown to be at the bottom of the ocean at the beginning of Season 6?
Is it a suggestion that, as Christian Sheppard asserts, everyone eventually dies and there is no now here? Even the island (a major character in its own right) eventually died? Is it just a writer’s trick to keep us guessing and off-guard?
I’d assume that in the ATL the island had never messed with them, so it was simply on the bottom of the ocean.
None of that stuff was really there after all, it was just set dressing for their coming to terms with their time on the island.
I’ve been kind of a staunch defender of Lost, to friends and family, and only most recently on here. I was in it for the characters, but I figured that for all the mysteries, there was an explanation. I figured that there were many things we could figure out, and other things that had to stay secret, otherwise why would anyone watch all the way through to the finale? Which meant they had to have some answers in the finale…
So when Flock said practically nothing about the Source and nothing was mentioned how it looked artificially constructed, I put the idea to rest that they were going to answer anything. I then really really enjoyed the finale.
I also came to peace with the fact that in order to get answers, the characters in the show would have had to observe them… and in many cases, no one had the knowledge to report, say, “Hey, that Jughead bomb that detonated - yeah the one that got the electromagnetic energy level down to a managable level where we could pour concrete on it and develop a non-automated system (cuz for some reason the energy keeps messing with our automated programs) to release the continuous build-up of energy (which we’ll have the people enter the Numbers as a Dharma-appropriate password to assure that only authorized personel do it) - well, there was cross-contamination. A small amount of the negatively-charged exotic matter became positively charged due to the radiation. The main effect of this is that, while continuing to heal the proper people at an accelerated rate, it now additionally causes an accelerated aging of the uterus in human females and any successfully impregnated human females will have their immune systems attack the fetus.”
Now, the writers may have an explanation in mind when writing it, but none of the characters could have known that… so how could they convey it to us as an audience? I’m kind of okay with that as a reasonable explanation as to why some answers where never given. I look forward to the bonus DVD that will have some answers from the writers’ point of view.
That being said…
I want to see that fucking bible, unedited.
The worst part of all this was the the Lost writers could have changed gears but still kept going with the storyline.
The candidates are those with a special link to the island. The smoke has to work through others (because he’s smoke). The numbers represent the candidates, many of which can be corrupted by Schmoky (like Linus, WIdmore and Alpert (at least for a time). However, there are some that cannot be corrupted. The numbers that Valenzetti discovered represented the candidates that have the special hoo-joo to kill Schmoky.
Notice in the first three season, it was foreshadowing faith vs. science? Schmoky is science. Working through Alvar Hanso (a corrupted candidate), the DHARMA Group gets started to use the power the island has over the candidates to “change the numbers” i.e. make the candidates that could destroy him into ones he has already corrupted or killed. Jacob is the man of faith. He HAS to believe that the candidates he’s guided will eventually prove to be incorruptable. The different names for Chang (another corrupted candidate)? Each one represents a different project to change one number so the “Candle” project is trying to change the number “15” for example.
But what about the sterility issues? Similar to the Massacre of the Innocents in the Bible. With the inability of DHARMA to change the numbers and the killing of the DHARMites, Schmoky realizes that the time has come and pre-emptively prevents any new people from coming to the island via birth. He can’t kill a candidate but he can make sure they’re not born.
But Jacob’s faith was rewarded when Oceanic 815 crashes. And Jack sacrifices himself to kill Schmoky, something a corrupted candidate would never do.
And that’s just a rough idea fighting jetlag having only a couple days to think about it. I’m sure some other Dopers could flesh it out, improve it and really make a good story that would answer or at least satisfy a lot of the questions. Oh and the glowy thing in the cave? Midichlorians 
I’m also going to miss these threads, even though I watched 80%+ of the show on dvd or on the delayed online-viewing schedule and only piped up on occasion.
Watching and discussing the show has been a much-enjoyed pastime with my better half and I. We met at the end of Season 1, but neither of us were watching the show at that time. We moved in together during Season 2, but still weren’t watching. We went on a 10 week sabbatical vacation and picked up the S1 dvd set while on the trip and started watching it once we got home, basically soaking in the first 2-3 Seasons within a month or two marathon-style and finally catching up with everyone else for vaguely real-time enjoyment of the show.
We’ve been together ever since and the experience of watching together just isn’t something that can be replaced by any other show.
Furthermore, when Ben confronted Jacob right before killing him in the season 5 finale, he complained to him about never having been allowed to talk to him but instead receiving “all those lists” through Richard.
I just watched the last half hour again and noticed something that I missed the first time around, and which I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread. From at least the time that Kate and Jack drive up to the church, the word “island” is not used, and there is no specific reference to the series’ events (other than the still fairly nonspecific exchange betwen Hurley and Ben about “really good Number 2” / “great Number 1”). I’m curious about the last time in the series that the word “island” is used. But from the time that Jack meets Christian, the parts could be played and the dialogue spoken by the characters from Lost or from any other ensemble-cast series, and still make an equally meaningful (or meaningless) ending.
Hey–bumping this 'cause I ended up with a question for people who thought the ending didn’t suck.
I was trying to explain the whole thing to a friend (with spoilers, so stuff was out of broadcast order–I explained it chronologically from the POV of one of the characters. So I started by explaining Jacob/Crazy Mommy/Man In Black and went forward from there–Richard/The Black Rock, The '50s Army stuff, Dharma, The crazy french chick and her party, etc)
So–I get to Season 5 and start explaining how most of the O6’s lives are totally craptastic. My friend looks at me and says “But…wait. Why would their lives all be so terrible? They got away. It’s what they wanted, right?”
I said “Yeah. But, per everyone–good guys (Jack, real Locke, etc) and bad guys (Whidmore for one) ‘The Island wasn’t through with them yet.’”
“Wait a sec…” he sez "I thought that Jacob’s entire motivation was finding a replacement who could take over for him. But that he wanted to give the replacement “the one thing [he] never had: a choice. How does that jibe with Jacob making their lives suck horribly if they wanted to quit?”
I :eek:'d. He’s right.
He said “What kind of choice is it if the choice is between “Do exactly what I want or I’ll ruin your life”? Why didn’t Jacob just take them off the list?”
I suggested that maybe it was the MIB who was doing it, but realized that the MIB has no contact with the outside world. That’s the whole point.
So…any rationalizations for what seems to me to be a gigantic freakin’ plot-hole in a (to me) already horribly broken ending?
Jacob didn’t make their lives suck. Their lives just sucked. Jacob chose people whose best choice would be to return to the island. It was fate. Destiny. Inevitable.
That’s what I thought. Jack asked him why he was screwing with their lives and Jacob said they were already screwed up.
I just realized I posted in the very first Lost episode thread, and now the last. 
I don’t think that works: RealLocke, Mrs Hawking, Jack, Jack’s Ghost Dad (I think) and a few others said that everything was rotten for them because “The island wasn’t done with them yet”. Hell, I think even BEN said “The Island isn’t through with you yet”.
But it was also shown that none of them really knew what was going on with the Island. No, there lives sucked because they always sucked. Jack would have always become an unhinged pill popper. Kate would always be on the run from somebody. Hurley would always think the voices in his head are out to get him. Sayid was always a violent, yet honorable, scumbag. Sun’s life was one of privelege, but also of loneliness.
Pre and post island life were basically the same for all of them.
Haven’t seen it yet, I’m still in season four, watching 3 or 4 episodes per day. I started about three weeks ago at season one.
So far, I’m loving this series.
I am not spoiled, by the way, so I have no idea what happens the rest of season four or in the two seasons after (and that’s how it’s going to stay, too : p).
But since I never got to post in one of these as they were going on “live”, I figure I will in this one. I’ve been reading every past thread made on here after every show, posts and topics made all through the years of the series run, so I already feel like I know a lot of you very well (about to open the “Ji Yeon” topic from season four and read that after I watch the episode, which I’m starting now)…so it’s a delight to get to post in one of these, even if it’s the last one and not an episode I’ve seen yet (nor will for probably another week or two).
Thanks for the rich history to read through, everyone.