Nope, Miles was with Sawyer, Claire and Aaron when Claire disappeared.
Is Charles Widmore away on jury duty or something? A year ago we were being set up that Widmore was the ultimate antagonist here.
The writers lose interest in that storyline?
I 'm not sure but I think Jacob vs. MiB may be Fate vs. Freewill.
Jacob manipulates people according to some grand design while MiB provides them with choices.
Or maybe they themselves are neither good nor evil themselves, but are trying to determine whether man is innately good or evil? Jacob believes they are good but need a gentle push in the right direction while MiB believes when given a choice they will choose evil.
It’s as if they have some kind of bet with rules and the winner escapes the island.
I’m pretty sure the lighthouse displayed all the times and locations that Jacob “touched” people.
Well, remember that she was hit intentionally, by someone going after Sayid. If Jacob hadn’t stopped him, Sayid would be dead.
I think the infection basically lets Esau convince people to do whatever he wants. The Sayid that walked out of that Temple did not look like the Sayid we know. I’m expecting a tragic end for him.
I’m think Widmore never spoke to Jacob. I’m think that none of the leaders ever spoke to Jacob. Ben was just the one who got really angry about it. When Richard told Widmore that Jacob wanted them to save Ben, he didn’t second guess it all.
Well, he stopped killing him when he saw the baseball drop, so it all ties in.
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And put me in the Jacob is the good guy camp. While Lost does throw us plenty of twists and sets us up with gray challenges (Jack vs. Locke, Ben vs. Widmore, etc.), it’s not that subtle of the show. And everything is say that while Jacob is a manipulator, Esau is the bad guy. And right now, Jacob has a much smaller army. In this show, the good guys are always outnumbered.
Yeah, I’m not sure I can fully explain my thought process on this, but it just seems like people who think Jacob is evil and the MiB is good are reading way too much into things. Just because you can interpret certain elements of the plot in such a way as to find some of Jacob’s acts distasteful–e.g., not intervening when his followers kill apparently innocent people–doesn’t mean it’s not true that the writers’ intentions are–that is, in the context of the internal mythology of the show–that Jacob is the good guy and MiB is the bad guy.
Also, it’s just not true that the MiB is always forthright with people. Without poring over transcripts I’m having trouble coming up with an example of an explicit, one-line lie, but he allowed Ben, Richard, and all the others to go on belieivng he was John Locke resurrected. He forced Ben into following him by threatening him with death unless he followed “John Locke” unquestioningly. He led that whole group of Others to the statue to “see Jacob” when none of them (except Ben, who was under duress) ever would have followed him had they known his true identity or intentions. He’s also allowing Claire to go on believing that the Others have her son and that he’s going to return him to her, not by getting her off the island, but by raiding the temple. So it’s not like he’s never been deceptive.
Another interesting little tidbit from this episode: it seems that the writers have not yet chosen a name for the MiB. If they had, we’d have heard it, instead of all this “he” and “you know who” business.
Could it be possible that MIB and Jacob are one in the same? They could just be different manifestations of the same being.
This line from Dogen seemed quite telling to me:
“For every man (singular) there is a scale. On one side of the scale there is good, and the other side, evil.”
Seems like foreshadowing to me.
With regards to the Jacob being evil thing, I think the point they are trying to make is that good & evil are opposite sides of the same coin, mirror images, etc. Thats what Dogen meant with that whole “Jacob made me this offer, I bet he made the same to you” thing. Jacob & MiB both seem to be doing the same stuff, just wearing different color shirts.
Really enjoyed the ep, but I thought they missed an opportunity for a fantastic HOLY SH** moment. If only Dogen had been a LITTLE more vague when describing to Sayid who to stab and just said something like “He will appear to you as someone you know.” Then when he came out and met up with Kate, I would have crapped my pants thinking he would accidentally stab her.
I’m wondering what happened to the fertility problem. Is that irrelevant now that Juliet is dead?
Count me in as another who is sick of the ABC promos, “We have so many answers in this ep, we can only show you tiny glimpses because by the end, YOU WILL HAVE ANSWERS.”
Imagine my disappointment when I got to the end of this episode and realized, nope. Not so much. Still have the same questions. What was answered for you by this episode?
I agree with this. I don’t think Jacob allowed, ordered, or condoned the mass killings of the DHARMAites, I think he was just indifferent to them. Linus and Widmore were both leaders and candidates, so Jacob has been watching them, and perhaps “nudging” them in certain scenarios. But ultimately, their decisions were theirs to make. They made the wrong decisions, so they got their names crossed off the list. Maybe he doesn’t want someone whose moral compass is always pointing due north, just someone who makes the right decision at the right time.
As someone at the Avclub noted: well, someone had to stay behind with Jin and babysit Claire’s hideous squirrel baby.
I think this is a good theory, BubbaDog.
I see what you mean, but why couldnt he have said a word to stop Nadia from walking out as well. Why would Sayid’s life be more important to Jacob, when Nadia’s death seems to be a positive propellent for Smokey’s plans? By letting her die, he gave Smokey ammo to manipulate Sayid.
Can you fill me in on where Smokey got the name ‘Esua’? Was this ever said on the actual show, or is this a bible reference that was coined on the internet?
WHERE’S SHANNON!? I’m sort of wondering if she arrives as Sayid’s lost love (who died in his arms, just like Nadia) as payment for Sayid delivering the message.
This was the big thing that bugged me about the episode - he told her if she got him into the temple, she’d get her son back (or did he just say “find out where her son is”? That would make a difference), but of course that wasn’t true, since we all knew Aaron wasn’t in the temple. With Claire being so batshit about getting her son back, I can’t buy her just shrugging that off, which she seemed to do after the temple raid, unless she’s just content to know Kate had him so she can exact revenge.
Some points:
-While I buy the infection idea to some degree, I think it’s also very likely that Sayid is choosing out of free will: Dogen didn’t want Unlocke to speak not because his speech has some magical power, but because he was afraid of what Unlocke would be able to tell Sayid. He was hoping that Sayid would try and fail to kill Unlocke, tricking Unlocke into killing him (and thus breaking a rule?) I think whatever “the rules” are, Dogen couldn’t act to kill Sayid anymore than Unlocke can kill a candidate.
Still on the theory that Sayid was tempted into his bargain, rather than brainwashed, I wonder if MiB told him that Jacob helped kill Nadia. Would the MiB know about the details of that? He didn’t seem to know specifically how Jacob had approached Sawyer. But something like that would CERTAINLY turn Sayid against Jacob and Jacob’s faction.
That said, wouldn’t the MiB have had to explain who Jacob was, and maybe even what the Island is, in order to convince him he could do what he claims? So we may well be dealing with some of our original Losties finally being clued into what’s going on before we, the audience are.
Also: anyone else get the sense that MiB is trying to get off the Island BEFORE Jacob’s “they” arrive?
Widmore: he said that there was a war coming, and here we are: a war, of sorts. Could Widmore have already known about Mib v Jacob and already picked a side? Is that how he’s relevant? What part will he play if so?
Oh: some REALLY interesting confirmation on a theory some have had in the second promo clip for next week’s episode. It involves a sideways flash to teacher Ben, and specifically what he’s teaching about, which strongly seems to foreshadow/mirror some of the gist of what the MiB, or Jacob, or the Island, are all about:
[spoiler]Ben is teaching his students about there being an island, Elba, where Napoleon was exiled/imprisoned, and how the worst thing for Napoleon in this was the loss of his power.
Exiled? To an Island? And this restricting someone’s power, and that PISSING THEM OFF? They can’t have picked all those elements without them meaning something fairly suggestive.
[/spoiler]
Also, the Tvguide summary for the next ep is interesting:
[spoiler]“Dr. Linus” – Ben deals with the consequences of an uncovered lie, on “Lost,
I’m betting the “lie” is that he didn’t kill Jacob, and that Ilana is going to be MIGHTY PISSED.[/spoiler]
Finally, there’s been some confirmation just when we’ll finally learn what the Island is: specifically in which episode:
Episode 9, the Richard episode
Finally, some mostly fun, non-earth-shattering casting news:
The role of Vincent has been cast!
It’s Voldemort!!!
Last season’s finale, when we first saw Jacob and his “man in black” counterpart (unnamed) – somebody in that week’s thread dubbed him with the nickname Esau (yes, making a biblical reference).
This may have been an idea that other people came up with simultaneously, too – since lostpedia lists that as one of the common nicknames given to the “Man in Black” in online Lost fan circles.
Question for you guys - Do you think Kate has been infected, or bad-otherized? Or is she just playing along?
During season 4, I think the producers said he was the “big bad” or something. My guess is that they meant for that season, since Widmore was the guy who sent the freighter to kill everyone on the island (save Ben).
It’s funny that both Widmore’s goal and the MiB’s goal (at least according to Dogen) - i.e. wiping every living person off the island - is the same. In my mind, that puts them in the same camp.
Speaking of Losties, when he saw the baseball fall, I assumed that it reminded him of his deal with Jacob, and that there’s a rule that they’re not allowed to kill Candidates outright. Which is why Dogen attempted to have Jack or the MiB do it instead. And which would explain why Ben and Widmore aren’t allowed to kill each other. And possibly why Ben was so incredulous when Alex was killed: She could be considered a candidate as either a Linus or a Rousseau, doubly protected by this assumed rule.
As to who is good or bad, MiB vs. Jacob, I remember someone asking the producers a similar question when it came to the Losties vs. the Others. Their response? Who has a higher body count? Apply that to Jacob and MiB, and I think that the MiB definitely has a higher direct kill count, especially after last night.
But if he is the bad guy, I have to give him props. Standard bad guy response to an attempted assassination? Instant death. MiB response? “Now why’d you do that?” Standard bad guy action after killing the leader? Kill the followers. MiB response? “I’m very disappointed in all of you!” Standard bad guy assault tactic? Surprise and deception. MiB? “I’m giving you to sunset to leave.” He may be the bad guy, but man, he’s got class.
She just looked kind of stunned at the end, to me. I don’t think she’s been bad-otherized.
Hey, I got it. 