Lost Mafia/Werewolf/Psychopath

[storyteller0910]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Hm. Is that really what we need? Role claims just in case?

Yup.

We are less than two hours from the deadline. One player - just one player - deciding to switch from IF to Ichini and Ichini will die. It could happen at five minutes from the deadline. If it does, and if Ichini is a power role, then we will lynch a power role who never had a chance to claim.

If you think this is unlikely, ask Zeriel if he wishes he had claimed just in case during Skrull Planet. If Ichini is, for example, an investigator, it would be plain foolishness to stay silent when he is this close to being lynched. Especially when the other leading candidate has claimed vanilla and therefore is either: (1) lying, and thus Scum, and thus someone the Scum would rather keep alive; or (2) vanilla, and thus a comparatively noncompelling target for a mislynch and one the Scum could gladly throw over for a shot at a potential power role.

---

Which leads to the question, Jimmy: Why wouldn’t you want Ichini to role claim “just in case?”

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

“Just in case” Ichini doesn’t get lynched, obviously. I mean, we could all role claim just in case, but we aren’t.

[storyteller0910]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

“Just in case” Ichini doesn’t get lynched, obviously. I mean, we could all role claim just in case, but we aren’t.

Well, that’s just incredibly disingenuous. You’re acting like there’s no difference between Ichini’s situation and the situation of the other players in this game. He is in imminent danger of dying, “all of us” are not.

You didn’t address any of my points in favor, just handwaved.

I will not vote for you toDay, because it will add nothing to the discussion, but I’d surely like to.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

You’re a strange one, aren’t you? I asked a question, which you answered. Then you asked me why I asked. I explained why I asked.

Now you’re acting like I’ve made some sort of accusation. Was there a 3-for-1 sale on bluster this morning or something?

[ShadowFacts]

I remain unconvinced on Fiend, and the “case” against Tom Scud looks like total OMGUS flailing to me, so the remaining top candidate is Ichini. I thought it would be helpful to review the basis of that case, which came from Chronos.

@Chronos

Further on Ichini: I just noticed that, right after storyteller posted his character summary, Ichini seemed to find it a good thing. But now, after liking it a page ago, he’s saying that it’s pinging him as a Scum tell? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Chronos links to Ichini’s first post about story’s summary, but here is the text:

@Ichini Sanshigo

Nice summation, storyteller. Seeing it laid out like that also gives us some indication of what power roles would be, if they had a prominent role in this game (I think Mahaloth said they wouldn’t). One, possible two doctors (one of whom is Other), maybe a traitor role of some sort (again, possibly both for town and scum, based n Michael and Juliet), maybe a Vig who runs off half-cocked after everyone tells them to stay with the camp (Kate), and, based on Mikhail and Richard, a scum who’s hard to kill (immune to a NK by Vig maybe? I doubt immune to lynch.)

And here is Ichini’s 2nd post on that, that Chronos found contradictory:

@Ichini_Sanshigo

Well, I’m inclined to disregard the current argument between ped and Meeko as more noise than signal. Aside from that, there’s a couple people I’m disinclined to think of as scum, but nobody really pinging as Other.

Except storyteller. Truly, that was an excellent summary, and very helpful. But perchance you took this as an opportunity to simply put on the appearance of helpfulness? A character summary is easily obtainable, both in Cafe Society’s numerous Lost threads, and elsewhere online. The only thing keeping me from thinking this was a scum ploy to gain trust is the fact that it seems you used your own words instead of cutting & pasting.

And finally, here is **Ichini’s **response to Chronos:

@Ichini_Sanshigo

First of all, I clearly stated my reasons for finding the summary suspicious in my initial post: it’s easily obtained information, and posting it is an easy way to appear helpful. Note that I didn’t actually vote for storyteller, on the grounds that ISTM an original character summary was less suspicious than a copypasta summary.

Note also that liking the summary and finding its writer questionable are not mutually exclusive. I’m not denying that it’s useful. Is it unreasonable that I would read the post, find it helpful, think about it, and then wonder about the motives of storyteller?

Honestly, it just seems like you’re reaching for straws with the whole order of the posts thing. Either you find my ideas scummy, or you don’t. Voting me for changing my mind is lame, since I didn’t actually change my mind.

So, looking at all of that, it seems to me that Chronos has a point here. The key point to me is Ichini’s statement: “First of all, I clearly stated my reasons for finding the summary suspicious in my initial post: it’s easily obtained information, and posting it is an easy way to appear helpful.” Well, no. In his initial post, he only mentions that it’s a good summary and goes from there with some speculation. In his second post, he discusses those suspicions, but that’s the very contradiction that Chronos voted for. So it kind of looks like **Ichini **explained the contradiction away, but upon closer reading, he really didn’t, IMO.

Since my current vote is floating in irrelevancy…

unvote telcontar
Vote Ichini Sanshigo

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

Oh, I don’t know where to start. Okay, I’ll start with the role claiming/mass claim idea. I will note, again, that no one besides pedescribe has ever provided an instance where it was helpful for town. I will also note, that no one has provided any rational counter to Imaginary Fiend’s “emotional” (yet, perfectly sensible) assertion that even if it was neutral or helpful for regular town, it would have effectively put power roles on the chopping block. The only argument for the mass claim’s town benefit is an after-the-fact, “Well Mahaloth changed the setup, so a claim must have been a great thing for town”. That’s not enough to convince me. I want a more reasoned explanation of HOW it would benefit town without compromising possible power roles.

I also think that it’s interesting how scum have managed to get the focus on this issue so much that already two people have claimed names and another is being forced into it. I’m not sure if Meeko claimed just for shits and giggles, or if he was priming the pump for others to claim so soon. Again, I thought that even though opinions differed on the claiming idea, it was universally agreed that such an event is best left for later in the game, and not the FIRST DAY!

My third issue was with the characterization of my previous opinions on storyteller’s list as “flip-flopping”. I would refer you to my earlier post, but I’ll just repeat myself: It wasn’t flip-flopping because it wasn’t contradictory. I wasn’t questioning the utility of the list. I was questioning the motives in posting it.

In Mafia, it seems people get voted for 2 general types of reasons:

1. Getting caught in a lie.
2. Advocating ideas that seem scummy (e.g. the argument over mass claim)

Now, unless a townie is playing weirdly, it’s unlikely they’ll be caught in a lie. Both town and scum can advocate for scummy ideas, but a townie may faithfully believe his/her idea is a good one; or maybe it really is, and town just doesn’t see that/is being mislead by scum.

There’s another way of finding Mafia, and that’s examining the reasons behind players’ posts. That’s what I was doing with storyteller. Yes, the list is helpful, but it gains him a lot of town cred and comes at little cost to scum (the info is freely available online). I never actually voted for storyteller, I was just thinking aloud, but I’ve become more suspicious after the way I’ve been jumped on for rationally thinking about the post.

I’m still suspicious of Tom Scud, and also Chronos since he was first person to call me out on my post about storyteller. Chronos may be scum defending fellow scum from closer inspection, or he may just be a townie who really was bothered by my alleged “flip flop”. So I’m not going to vote for him. Yet.

My initial suspicions of storyteller combined with the oh so convenient need to claim, leads me to:

Unvote Tom Scud
Vote storyteller0910

[Meeko]

@Imaginary_Fiend

[Snip]

So, a caveat: The following is equal parts sarcasm and vitriol with some sprinkles of self-pity to boot, so don’t expect anything too profound.You’re probably better off skipping it.

[Bolding mine]

I don’t know, it would seem that every game of Mafia, you learn something about yourself. Perhaps, with every page. I am actually going to pick this up, Imaginary Fiend. It screams “Do not Touch”, but I feel … distantly smudged here. I’m not even sure I am using that term correctly. I just know, I feel I **MUST ** respond.

Yours is too long to break up, and allow for multiple windows. Hopefully the different ““voice”” will make my comments easier to identify.

Anyway, I find it deeply ironic that Meeko, who strikes me as the type of player who the scum would gladly use as a screaming meat shield, will live to see another Day and I’m getting frog-marched to the gallows. I guess it’s all in how you present yourself, isn’t it?

Everyone is getting on my case for citing Crimson Glyph. However, it was my first Mafia game (Making this one just my Second Mafia game ever.) I must reference it, because it IS all of my experience, that is non-active.

I am not exactly sure how you mean “meat shield” here. if anything, Town was using me as meat shield, (Sacrificial, lets get Meeko out of here, he is only good for a lynch anyway, better us than him, – I know that some Town thinks this, even now).

In reality, Scum would use me the opposite of a meat shield. In fact they have. Despite being Town, and Being confirmed quite early, Scum groomed me in broad daylight, on the town board, to be a 4th scum. **Mahaloth, of all people said that I was helping Scum in Crimson,**Being scum, he told his other scummates to “Feed This”, refering to me. My abuse went on for most of the game. Yours, is decidedly less bad, and, while not looking too good for you currently, it will be over with.

I suppose it’s bad form to post that, but I’m sort of beyond caring. At this point I’m just putting this out as an “I told you so” and hopefully as an object lesson that some of us aren’t acting suspicious or scummy on purpose, but because we’re trying to get a handle on the game.

I know what I say next will mean next to nothing for you. I know that given how this game is playing out on Day 1, I am perhaps not the best person to say it. However, I believe in truth, and I am going to state a truth, regardless. When you confirm it elsewhere, hopefully you will understand what I doing here.

The odds of a mislynch (Town votes town) on Day 1 is HUGE. Assume a 20 player game, there are 3 or 4 (perhaps) scum. I’m not that great at math, but I think that is on the order of a 75% chance of a Townie lynch. It sounds cold to say this, but, the fact is, math did you in, perhaps more than play. ((Assuming you are Town, which, on a strictly fact basis, I can not confirm one way or another.))

[A Bunch of WIFOM over your timing and the Aliases that Mahaloth gave.]
[Snip on half of this paragraph, to comment where I can on the rest of it]
I, for one, simply didn’t know any better. I thought I was doing the Town a favor by raising an alarm. Damn, I’m sorry I did that. I could have lurked or argued over some previous slight in another game and I’d apparently have been far more likely to have made it to endgame.

I was against the Claim also. You can see that I was REAL vocal at the VERY start of the game against Claiming. I too, simply didn’t know any better. I was looking at MAFIA too much, and not LOST. However, those familiar with LOST knew better. This set events in motion. We were both, in our own ways victims of circumstance, and I found my self EXACTLY where you find yourself now. Not knowing what would come, but knowing what I had to do, I HAD to act when I did. Thanfully, the change from Mahaloth worked exactly OPPOSITE how I feared.
What actually disgusts me the most about the whole thing is how emotionally charged I let a bunch of arguments scrawled in a message board make me. I haven’t had much experience with this game, but this was a learning experience in the negative sense, and one that I truly never wish to repeat.

This might not be a surprise here. I remain amazed and how much this game gets to me. I think it just means that we play on a different level than most people here do. FWIW, other forum games are much the same way. There was a recent game of Haggle, where, I probably should have gotten a technical foul, all the four letter words I spouted out over there. – It does take me by surprise. I should not be taken by surprise, but I am.
**
I would suspect, that the lack of emotion, “voice”, or inflection goes a LONG way in adding to, and not taking away the emotional charge **

To sum up, I really regret how I played this game, both by being too vociferous when I shouldn’t have been and too quiet when I shouldn’t have, and it pisses me off that the one idea I decide to counter-champion among many ideas that were thrown around turns out to be the potential exploit that Mahaloth didn’t see coming.

[Snip]

IF : Again, I know that I am perhaps the last person you want to hear say this. I get that.

Give this Mafia another shot. -Every game is organic. It probably takes multiple games to find your style. I have already “relapsed” into the player I was in Crimson, and I vowed to never do THAT again.

It does look as if timing got to you here. I can’t promise anything, but I think on a numbers, timing, gameplay experience, and perhaps even your given role basis, your next game will be better. First day lynches are perhaps the most unpredictable things in the game.

I have no problems with playing with you again. We are all still learning.

You did not fail here, you took a giant step closer to becoming the Mafia Player you know you are.

Everyone else, and their brother will tell you “It’s just a game”, and the rest of that discourse.

If you allow me, Let me leave you with something else:

The strongest steel goes through the hottest fire.

[ShadowFacts]

NETA: I suspect I will not be able to be around at the noon deadline, so do not expect any last minute vote changing from me. I don’t know if this vote created a tie, but I’m assuming story can break it if needed since he said he will vote soon.

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

By “initial post” I meant my initial post questioning the summary. And it’s still not contradictory to find the post helpful but the motives of the post suspicious (response to ShadowFacts).

And before someone asks, I’m not going to name claim. I’m town, and my name and alignment match, but that’s all you’re getting out of me. From the looks of things, you’ll find out soon anyway.

[storyteller0910]

@ShadowFacts

NETA: I suspect I will not be able to be around at the noon deadline, so do not expect any last minute vote changing from me. I don’t know if this vote created a tie, but I’m assuming story can break it if needed since he said he will vote soon.

It did and I will.

Ichini, refusing to claim at this point - and actually impugning me for suggesting that you do - is one of two things. Either you’re Town, and being incredibly pig-headed (what, tied for the lynch lead with 50 minutes until the deadline isn’t sufficient threat?). Else you’re Scum, and you know that making the wrong claim could get you strung up, and figure we won’t want to lynch someone who hasn’t claimed.

Your vote for me, by the way, is ridiculous. In what way is my suggestion that you claim “oh so convenient?” You don’t get to just say things like that without elaborating. Convenient to whom? In what way? I suggested you claim because you are under lynch pressure and if you’re a power role, I don’t want you to die.

But of the two lead candidates, your behavior is far more squirrelly, far Scummier, than IF’s. First principle: vote for who you think is most likely to be Scum.

OK.

vote Ichini Sanshigo

[Tom_Scud]

@Ichini_Sanshigo

Oh, I don’t know where to start. Okay, I’ll start with the role claiming/mass claim idea. I will note, again, that no one besides pedescribe has ever provided an instance where it was helpful for town. I will also note, that no one has provided any rational counter to Imaginary Fiend’s “emotional” (yet, perfectly sensible) assertion that even if it was neutral or helpful for regular town, it would have effectively put power roles on the chopping block. The only argument for the mass claim’s town benefit is an after-the-fact, “Well Mahaloth changed the setup, so a claim must have been a great thing for town”. That’s not enough to convince me. I want a more reasoned explanation of HOW it would benefit town without compromising possible power roles.

Nobody in fact said that it would have benefited town WITHOUT compromising possible power roles. Those of us arguing in favor argued that the benefit to town would have outweighed the danger.

Or as Nanook put it in 333:

As for power roles, since I know people will keep bringing that up, think about it. What’s the best that say a detective can do? Confirm 3 or 4 people, maybe out a scum in the process? A successful name claim could easily confirm 8 or 9 people. Seriously, who cares about power roles then?

[Tom_Scud]

Oh, and obviously Meeko claimed because he was leading the voting at the time, and might well have been lynched for being annoying and irrational if he hadn’t.

[Mahaloth]

**Vote Count:

Ichini(6): Chronos, Zeriel, AllWalker, Oredigger, ShadowFacts, Storyteller

Imaginary Fiend(5): Tom Scud, Telcontar, Nanook, Pedescribe, CardinalFang

Tom Scud(1): Imaginary Fiend

BillMC(1): Meeko

Meeko(1): BillMC

Pedescribe(1): Jimmy Chitwood

Storyteller(1): Ichini**

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

@storyteller0910

It did and I will.

Ichini, refusing to claim at this point - and actually impugning me for suggesting that you do - is one of two things. Either you’re Town, and being incredibly pig-headed (what, tied for the lynch lead with 50 minutes until the deadline isn’t sufficient threat?). Else you’re Scum, and you know that making the wrong claim could get you strung up, and figure we won’t want to lynch someone who hasn’t claimed.

How is that possible? If I was scum, I couldn’t possibly make the wrong claim, because scum have false names.

Your vote for me, by the way, is ridiculous. In what way is my suggestion that you claim “oh so convenient?” You don’t get to just say things like that without elaborating. Convenient to whom? In what way? I suggested you claim because you are under lynch pressure and if you’re a power role, I don’t want you to die.

“Convenient” for scum looking for power roles. A power role dying this early in the game, before they even had a chance to use their power, would kind of suck for town. And I’m relatively certain that a power role claiming would die, if not the first night, then the next.

For what it’s worth, I’m not a power role, so my death isn’t such a loss to town. It’s actually beneficial, because town can mine my voters for scum. I’m town, my name is Sun. That won’t help you in deciding whether I’m scum or not, since you’re counting my reluctance to claim against me. But there it is.

[storyteller0910]

@Ichini_Sanshigo

There’s another way of finding Mafia, and that’s examining the reasons behind players’ posts. That’s what I was doing with storyteller. Yes, the list is helpful, but it gains him a lot of town cred and comes at little cost to scum (the info is freely available online). I never actually voted for storyteller, I was just thinking aloud, but I’ve become more suspicious after the way I’ve been jumped on for rationally thinking about the post.

Just want to make two quick points:

1. I have not jumped on you for “rationally thinking about the post.” I firmly agree with you that posting a helpful list of LOST characters does not make me anything more than a freak who has watched every episode (and is halfway through a second viewing!). That said…

2. The mere fact that a thing is not a Town-tell does not make that thing a Scum-tell. It is one thing to say, “the list could have Scum motivations;” it is quite another to jump from there all the way to “I am suspicious of this person (above all other persons) because of the list.” The former is just good solid reasoning. There are very few reasons to completely clear a player. The latter, though, makes no sense.

[Telcontar]

As of right now the vote is 6-5 in favor of lynching Ich over IF, with half an hour left to go.

I’m not sure if night strategy is allowed so, before the day closes, I would just like to point out that storyteller and Jimmy both took essential steps in making the death of Ich possible (one by unvoting, the other by casting a very last minute vote). They are now sniping at each other, but not necessarily in a real damaging way. This all happened after IF claimed vanilla. I’m not sure what I think of this, but intend to take a close look at this tomorrow. It only occurs to me to worry about this because I’d been thinking that a last minute mafia crowning of Ich over IF (or vice versa) would actually look fairly blatant at this point.

Is night talking allowed?

[storyteller0910]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

You’re a strange one, aren’t you? I asked a question, which you answered. Then you asked me why I asked. I explained why I asked.

…and your explanation was disingenuous. Did the big word confuse you? It means that your explanation, which referenced a lot of players (he shouldn’t role claim because hey, you don’t see all of us role claiming) left out critical information that I think you know.

Now you’re acting like I’ve made some sort of accusation. Was there a 3-for-1 sale on bluster this morning or something?

Hey, bite me.

[Tom_Scud]

Another point: if BillMC doesn’t show up in the next hour, do we ask for a sub? Or if not, at what point do we?

[Telcontar]

Ich, you’ve registered your suspicions about storyteller. Do note that you can vote defensively. It creates a bit of a game of chicken to see who will break the tie (hopefully someone!) but if you feel it’s important that you live go ahead. Given the lateness of the hour you might just want to let the lynch happen if you’re vanilla just in case mahaloth has a bitter tie break system.

wow, posting is happening fast!

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

I’m actually worried about that too, to be honest with you. But I really didn’t (don’t) think that Fiend is scum. I cooked Ichini’s goose, but it wasn’t really my intent, otherwise I’d have just voted for him.