LOTR Book Question - open spoilers

Cafe Society
61

Alright, I’ll bite. But I really do grow weary of this nonsense.

Actually I find believing “I cannot guess” as literally meaning Gandalf was totally incapable of guessing to be far less “simple” than that he was choosing to not guess, but could have. That he could have guessed, but chose not to out of worry or fear or concern to not panic the Company, is to me is a more logical and actually in fact a simpler interpretation. If something was impeding his ability to guess–and I can’t really see why you insist it’s utterly impossible that he might have been able to guess a balrog–that requires a lot more explanation. Are you seriously going to say that Gandalf definitely had no idea whatsoever what a balrog was? Or was totally 100% definitely clueless that some were left in the world? That boggles the mind.

That argument was to counter your assertion that “I cannot guess” means literally that Gandalf was incapable of guessing. For him to be literally incapable of guessing would make him too clueless for words.

Now here is a non sequitur. And, actually, a straw man. One does not need to walk around with reference materials to make a guess about anything.

Besides, there’s no balrog in any edition of the D&D Monster Manual. :stuck_out_tongue:

But also, the palantirs were kept VERY secret by the Númenóreans. That Gandalf did recognize it suggests that his knowledge of history and lore was actually quite strong. Which I suggest makes it even less likely that he knew nothing at all about balrogs or would have been totally clueless that some might be around still.

Sure it does. But are you really going to say that it is impossible for Gandalf to have any clue at all what a balrog was? Because that is contradicted by the texts. He recognized one when he saw one, ergo, it might have been possible for Gandalf to have guessed one was in Moria. Note the words “might” and “possible.”

Sure, it could have been something unknown. He couldn’t know for certain it was a balrog, and, get this, I never said he knew it was. I said, “may have suspected a balrog” My assertion has always been, “may.” Never “he knew there was a balrog.”

Here’s the logic:

  1. Gandalf knew what balrogs were.
  2. Gandalf is aware that a balrog would be a serious challenge.
  3. Something very powerful challenged him at the door.
  4. It’s therefore possible that he might have been able to guess the something that challenged him was a balrog. It also’s possible it could be something else entirely different, or entirely unknown to him. But it’s also possible that he might have been able to guess the correct answer.

Get it? “Might.” I’ve always said “might,” “may,” “possible,” “possibly,” “suspected.” I never said “was,” or “knew.”

Blah, blah, irrelevant crap deleted.

So what? He could have guessed a balrog and been right. Or, he could have been able to guess something else and been wrong. But it’s within the realm of possibility that he might have been able to guess correctly. I think the correct guess was in his mind despite his dissembling about “I cannot guess” because of his lack of surprise when he actually stood in front of the balrog. It’s a reasonable possibility, and you’ve shown nothing to make this impossible.

  1. He knows what balrogs were.
  2. He knows that they are immortal (well, rather, their existence is bound to Middle Earth as long as it lasts or they are physically destroyed.)
  3. It is therefore possible to guess that some are still around, since not all were destroyed.
62

So you think gandalf’s internal monologue at the door was something like “man, gotta shut that door! Closing spell! WTF IS THAT! Holy hell that thing is strong! What in the name of Og is that thing?!”

Hey gandalf, what was that?

Internal Monologue: “is it one of sauruman’s beasts? Surely it’s not a balrog. Nobody has seen one in three thousand years! Blood and bloody ashes!”

Uh, I don’t know, man. I’ve never been challenged like that.

IM: “Light! A bloody balrog? No. No way. Not gonna go there.”

Yeah?

63

Plausible. Modern slang excepted.

Obviously this is conjecture only, since Tolkien didn’t provide us with Gandalf’s internal monologue.

64

Just to preemptively dispense with a likely pedantic argument, when I said “I never said ‘was,’ or ‘knew,’” I was referring specifcially to speculation on whether Gandalf might have been able to guess a balrog was Durin’s Bane, not whether Gandalf* knew* what a balrog was. That Gandalf knew what balrogs were is clearly supported by the text, when he confirms Legolas’s fearful exclamation. Whether Gandalf might have guessed he was facing a balrog, or whether a balrog was Durin’s Bane, is entirely speculation on my part.

65

Question that’s always bothered me:

Sauron gets the ring from Frodo and he wins. He covers the land in second darkness. His orcs enslave most* of humanity (and hobbits, dwarves, elves who haven’t left, etc). There would be no realistic end to Sauron’s dominance.

  1. Will the Valar help the free peoples? Or would they let Sauron win, cluck their tongues and think “That’ll teach those mortals who didn’t destroy that ring”.
  • Easterlings and Southrons won’t mind all the darkness?
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My guess is that, since the Valar did in fact help humanity win (by sending Gandalf, among other things), they would do something else to help if that plan failed.

They wouldn’t come in force - if you’ve read The Silmarillion you’ll know how badly that went in the past - but neither will they entirely abandon humanity to darkness.

67

I have a question for you LoTR loremasters: who is the oldest living being in Middle-Earth - Tom Bombadil or Treebeard?

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Tolkien wrote later that “Eldest” for Treebeard was a courtesy title rather than an accurate description. Bombadil was much older, and may have existed since the very beginning of the world.

Here’s a link to a discussion of the issue on another forum.

69

My reading of the books is that he honestly wasn’t sure what the hell it was until it actually showed itself to the whole Fellowship. Note that he seemed worried and uncertain even when describing how he engaged it in a battle of spells (it was on the other side of the gate to Balin’s tomb/the Chamber of Mazarbul).

This implies, too, that he thought there was more than one possibility. Nobody seems to have suggested it could be a Nazgul, so there must have been more than one kind of powerful magic-user running about.

Not anytime soon. However, more powerful evils had arisen and been overthrown before. Sauron’s reign would not likely last forever, though it would be a long time passing. Sooner or later, he’d make a mistake, a rebellion would spring up, and he’d be beaten back.

The Valar would not intervene, at least not for a very long time. But that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t involved on some level, battling him indirectly. They seem to believe that they shouldn’t be completely overpowering evil, I would guess on the grounds that they’d end up doing more damage. They were willing to march in force to defeat Morgoth, but they only sent Maiar to deal with a Maiar, even if he had gone bad and become more powerful than any other of his rank.

I think the darkness is more figurative than literal. Mostly, anyway. The skies above Mordor always seemed to be grey and almost physically painful, true, but Sauron did have legions of slaves tending crops and managing to survive.

Likewise, the Easterlings and Southrons might not particularly like him, but they knuckled under and obeyed. Their rulers seem to have been reasonably willing to go along with Sauron, and while he was a tyrant, he was capable of being generous to his minions. He presumably kept them in power as long as they obeyed. They probably were thought the western-men were crazy for defying Sauron so openly.

70

I like best the explaination that Tom isn’t really a “living being” … :wink:

71

Bad question.

First, define “living.” Do you count spirits? Quasi-spirit beings? And of course, many creatures were in the Middle-Earth but not exactly from there. You need to define when you consider a being to have been “born” and sometimes, “died”.

Some of the eldest elves may have still been hanging around Middle-Earth - it’s quite possible Cirdan was one of them. He’s definitely a candidate.

Treebeard was probably awakened by the elves right after that, so he might well have a claim, and is also the most “native” elder creature.

The Greatfeather of the Dwarves, Durin, would have been alive and awake before the elves (but then was supposely put to sleep to awaken later) and may have reincarnated several times.*

*It’s not really clear what the Dwarves do after death. They were added later, so presumably they’re taken care of by Illuvatar, but the details are largely left to the imagination. Note that the characters themselves may differ on this, and they might not all know themselves.

72

The question is more of a riff on the fact that they are both described as the “eldest” in the books. :wink: Gandalf describes Treebeard as “the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the sun upon this middle-earth” and if we can’t trust Gandalf, who can we trust? :smiley:

As stated, my solution is that Tom isn’t really a “living thing”.

73

Nah, he just doesn’t walk. He skips. :smiley:

74

:stuck_out_tongue:

75

And my fanwank is that Bombadil (and several very old Elves) are excluded from that comparison by virtue of predating the Sun. Of anything that came into being after the first dawn, Treebeard is the eldest.

76

And for that matter Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, who date back to before the creation of Middle-Earth.

The Ents were created just after the Dwarves, as Yavanna (correctly) assumed that the Dwarves would destroy her forests, and wanted protection for them. Assuming they awoke at the same time as the Dwarves, that is shortly after the Elves awoke, the oldest Ents would be as old as all but a few Elves.

If Treebeard was one of the original Ents, and if Cirdan (the oldest Elf remaining in Middle-Earth) wasn’t an original Elf, Treebeard would be older than all the Elves. I don’t think there’s any definite answer to this, though.

77

Not a fanwank at all. Gwaihir himself says Radagast sent him to look for Gandalf when Saruman had him imprisoned in Orthanc.

Galadriel describes Celeborn as “the wisest of the Galadrim”. This does not speak well of the wisdom of the Galadrim, as Celeborn seems to be the least intelligent being we encounter, with the possible exception of Butterbur, in the entire epic.

78

Sure, but such a request is missing from the text in the Battle of Five Armies and Battle of the Black Gate, but it seems plausible, especially given the Orthanc passage that you mentioned.

79

What she really means is that he has enough sense to say “yes, dear” whenever it counts. It’s the formula they’ve worked out for a happy marriage: She pretends he’s wise, and he lets her have all the actual power.

80

:confused:

Tolkien would have been passingly familiar with Queen Victoria…