Mafia: Evil Dead - DAY/NIGHT ONE

[JSexton]

@Pleonast

@Pleonast

Do you really believe Mafia players only give logical answers? Do you think poking someone to see their reaction is not a useful tactic? What? Are you sure you know how to play Mafia? Our goal is to determine other people’s alignment. Of course, I’m looking at everything in terms of those possibilities. I didn’t expect him to give details of his role, but I did expect to determine something about it from his reaction. This is not a difficult concept. I think I’m putting you back in my “newbie” mental category.

Antagonistic or not, are you going to respond to my points?

I’m sorry, those appeared to be rhetorical questions.

1. No, people can be illogical. But the potential for illogical answers to your question range from “Yes, I’m a mason!” to “Yes, I’m the mafia godfather!” to “Cucumbers are delicious!”. The former is not helpful right now, the middle seems unlikely, and the latter gets us nowhere. Also, let’s note that the former is what we ended up getting, so kudos.

2. Of course. What do you think I’ve been doing all game? My poking, however, doesn’t involve asking for goddamned role claims.

3. How?

4. Yes, pretty sure.

5. True.

6. Well, yeah, but the best approach isn’t neccessarily asking each player in turn “Are you town? Prove it!” (warning, blatant hyperbole may be contained in this post for illustrative purposes.)

7. See, this is the part I have a problem with. Analogy: Say you walk up to a guy on the street and say “Nice shirt. It makes me wonder if you have sex with other men.” When he says “Dude, I’m not gay”, would you get irritated and claim you weren’t actually asking him about his sexual orientation? In other words, I maintain that the most obvious answer to your question was to make a partial roleclaim. It’s possible that it wasn’t your intent, but if so, it was an extremely sloppy question.

8. I’ve played over 50 games of mafia on 8 sites, with a win ratio of around 70%. I’ve modded 9 games, and designed (or helped design) a couple dozen more. You can put me in whatever category you want, but it won’t help your cause any.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
JSexton is suspicious for playing very strangely. I’m not sure what his regular play style is, but this game he seems to be attacking me for the usual game back-and-forth. Plus, he has been very reluctant to answer questions (not just mine).

There you go again. What questions have I avoided? Link, please.

[Thing_Fish]

Quoting Pleonast and somehow messing up the quote function:

Thing Fish is suspicious for saying I “was trying to drive the wagon on [ped] was in fact Town”. Two problems with that statement. First, I was not driving the train. I merely pointed out the slip and then backed off. Even ped admits that much. Second, driving a train against a Townie is rarely a scum tell.

It is not exactly unheard of for scum to try to draw attention to a Townie, then unvote once the train gets rolling. This acheives the scum goal of getting a Townie lynched without having to be accountable for having voted to lynch a Townie. So your behavior with regard to that train certainly does not excuse you from suspicion, and your even trying to claim that it does adds to that suspicion. But to clarify, I view Ped’s presumed-Town-for-now status as at best a small point supporting my vote on you. Your second point, of course, is sadly true.

I am done with substantive posting for the Day, but will try to check in tomorrow morning to see if there are any last-minute roleclaims or anything.

[peekercpa]

And I think we need to go back to the beginning. It seems that we are getting several watered down versions of “scum would never do that” as regards to fishing or a relatively similar facsimile. Dangerous territory. I know that it is early and we have to ease into each other’s play styles. Just something to have inscribed in pen somewhere close by.

I mean, for all we know the scum team could be sponsored by Bass Pro Shops.

And BTW, I am undefeated in the games I have played. 'Course you have to exclude from the totals games where my side lost.

[Hawkeyeop]

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I’m finding it difficult to imagine a viable scum benefit for macey’s play, assuming for the moment that he is scum.

On one hand is a possible fishing expedition that might pay off, on the other hand is a gambit that would result in the amount of votes that he’s getting 9 times out of 10. What I mean is, in 9 games out of 10, if someone pushes a claimed Mason for more information on Day 1, I think the mob would string him/her up for all of the reasons that have already been stated.

Is the potential fishing pay-off really worth the risk?

This is the type of reasoning that killed the town in SDMB. It killed the town in Marvel until power roles rescued town (I disagree with Naf’s assessment of the endgame, but that is neither here nor there. Well, maybe there.) Saying an action is too scummy for scum to do is telling the scum to act as scummy as you like, we won’t lynch you for it. We need to stop letting those actions go. If someone acts blatantly scummy we need to vote for them. At worse it will force the town and scum to play less scummy, both to our advantage. The alternate let’s scum run the game.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@NAF1138

Wanna help out a guy with not enough time to do things 100% right? Sum up why you are more suspicious of TF than anyone else for me. Since I actually trust you at this point I think it would be particulalry interesting to hear why you think this.

Well, I’m suspicious of both Almost Human and Diggit Camera for using logic I can not follow to bolster an accusation based on an extremely tenuous “slip”. Thing Fish did that as well, and he also made comments implying a narrower candidate field than there truly was.

@Hal_Briston

Apologies, holidays, traveling, getting loose ends at work tied up before vacation, all that (sorry, it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better).

After a quick-skim (in a non-scummy fashion) readthrough, I have to say: Hey pedescribe, wasn’t it brought up early on for Masons not to claim?? That we don’t need a bunch of us running around with “Nightkill Me” signs around their necks?

An unconfirmed Mason is useless to town, and a confirmed Mason this early is nothing but cannon fodder. I implore any other Masons (if we have any) to keep it quiet, please!

Now then, time to go back for a more careful readthrough…

I tried to hold off as long as I could, but I was in the vote lead by more than one vote a day away from the deadline. :shrugs:
What would you have done in that position?

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I’m finding it difficult to imagine a viable scum benefit for macey’s play, assuming for the moment that he is scum.

On one hand is a possible fishing expedition that might pay off, on the other hand is a gambit that would result in the amount of votes that he’s getting 9 times out of 10. What I mean is, in 9 games out of 10, if someone pushes a claimed Mason for more information on Day 1, I think the mob would string him/her up for all of the reasons that have already been stated.

Is the potential fishing pay-off really worth the risk?

Ah, but you’re assuming that he realized he was being blatant. Just because something is obvious to everyone else doesn’t mean it’s obvious to the writer…:smack:

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Yes, yes, but what it seems to be boiling down to now is that the “scum would never do that” debate is now a null tell, and that seems to be the latest evolution in these games. NAF can be found quoted in many games saying something to the effect of, “Don’t just vote against an idea that you don’t agree with or don’t like, it is much better to tease out those things that also give the scum an advantage.”

In this case there is at least a logical scum pay-off: catching power-role fish based on reactions to the push for pede to divulge more details. I get that. But I’ve seen many a townie have his/her neck stretched when the mob tries to make an example out of someone based on principle.

[peekercpa]

Well, couple of first Day observations thus far.

pede You done screwed up. Don’t know what it means at this point. You are pretty experienced so this is total WIFOM for me. Not sure what kind of game you are playing, yet.

Pleo You vigged me last game when I was town power because you didn’t like my play style. Okie Dokie. Shoot I hope you are not a vig again. And I did not think you were fishing.

JsexDon’t know that we have ever been in a game together. You are referenced frequently in every game that I play. Makes you kind of Oggish.

Naf and Mhaye seem to be playing center of the court. Another WIFOM.

Nanook not posting scratch, but he has RL reasons so sheep doodle, that’s a dead end.

Our across the pond friends. Hard to get a read on.

BUT fishy clearly mis-characterized Pleo’s play in driving or starting a wagon or whatever. At least in my opinion. I’ve been on the other side of these and while I think pleo should be chastised for his approach, to characterize it as a wagon driver seems a little forced.

Vote Thing Fish

Personally, I’ d just as soon lynch Hal or blam since they are not contributory. But since these types of sentiments have about a snowballs chance screw it, what is the point. Let’s lynch the participants. I will laugh my ass off when we get a scum or PFK that wins a game without ever posting one thing. Can’t get rid of them because “non town” would never do that.

A whole lot of pennies.

[Pleonast]

Thank you for responding constructively.

@JSexton

I’m sorry, those appeared to be rhetorical questions.

1. No, people can be illogical. But the potential for illogical answers to your question range from “Yes, I’m a mason!” to “Yes, I’m the mafia godfather!” to “Cucumbers are delicious!”. The former is not helpful right now, the middle seems unlikely, and the latter gets us nowhere. Also, let’s note that the former is what we ended up getting, so kudos.

Yes, but it wasn’t my pressure that forced him to claim. Would you have preferred that we allow a slip to go uncommented? (not rhetorical)

2. Of course. What do you think I’ve been doing all game? My poking, however, doesn’t involve asking for goddamned role claims.

Neither does mine. You’re the only who thinks it does.

7. See, this is the part I have a problem with. Analogy: Say you walk up to a guy on the street and say “Nice shirt. It makes me wonder if you have sex with other men.” When he says “Dude, I’m not gay”, would you get irritated and claim you weren’t actually asking him about his sexual orientation? In other words, I maintain that the most obvious answer to your question was to make a partial roleclaim. It’s possible that it wasn’t your intent, but if so, it was an extremely sloppy question.

The analogy is flawed. I haven’t expressed any irritation at ped. He satisfied me with his first response, no role claim involved. It’s been you, saying “why did you ask if he was gay” who’s irritated me. Because no one else thinks that was what I was asking.

@Pleonast

Plus, he has been very reluctant to answer questions (not just mine).

There you go again. What questions have I avoided? Link, please.

And there you go again, mischaracterizing my posts. I didn’t say you avoided questions, I said you were reluctant to answer. And you were. After you voted for me with no justification, several players asked you about it, immediately. It wasn’t until you were prompted again that you finally responded. And without much discussion.

Anyway, I’m feeling that our disagreement is due to a fundamentally different approach to the game. Not a good basis for a vote at this time.
unvote JSexton

@Thing_Fish

It is not exactly unheard of for scum to try to draw attention to a Townie, then unvote once the train gets rolling.

So you’re voting for me because a scum might do what I did? That’s an extremely weak reason.
vote Thing Fish

This acheives the scum goal of getting a Townie lynched without having to be accountable for having voted to lynch a Townie. So your behavior with regard to that train certainly does not excuse you from suspicion, and your even trying to claim that it does adds to that suspicion.

Merely voting for someone first is not driving a train. (And I think I may have unvoted him before anyone else voted for him.) It has been other players who pushed him to claim. Why do you choose to vote for me when others are greatly more culpable?

(Running out of time. I’ll try to answer other questions (NAF’s in particular), later.)

[DiggitCamara]

I can’t say (s)he is really a strong candidate in my book, but for:

1. Scarce participation
   and
2. Pretty ugly participation (in her/his posts (s)he speaks only about potential outing of masons and about “A” and “B” power outings)

I’ll

vote Chucara

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

My case against JSexton being as weak as it is, I don’t mind attempting to be the muscle on some of our lurkers.

Unvote JSexton
Vote Blam

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@peekercpa

Well, couple of first Day observations thus far.

pede You done screwed up. Don’t know what it means at this point. You are pretty experienced so this is total WIFOM for me. Not sure what kind of game you are playing, yet.

I’ve screwed up in every game. :shrugs:

-Messed up my falseclaim in Gastardmod
-Forgot the specifics of the vig in Con 2
-Played the world’s dumbest gambit in SMB
-Implied I felt sorry for fluiddruid in Simpletown
-…I don’t even remember what in SDMB

so me screwing up is no suprise.

I’m gonna

Unvote Thing Fish
Vote Macey

because he’s more suspicious to me, and it looks like he’ll need my vote after all.

[Chucara]

Sorry for lack of participation, been quite busy lately… Making no promises, I’ll try to reread today and cast a vote, and try to respond to the votes on me…

[Stanislaus]

For those who are interested, I’ve played in 3 games (Sekham, Conspiracy I, SDMB) and have a perfect record*.

I’m still working on the theory that, especially in the early game, the most pro-scum thing to do is sit back and let town out its own power-roles and lynch itself. On that basis, I’m unconvinced by the case against macey. So, looking for quiet posters, I’m going to switch my vote:

unvote peekercpa
vote Rapier42

Because a) low participation, b) I really didn’t like his one substantive postwhere he accused Natlaw of butchering a Chucara quote. I didn’t think the quote was butchered at all.

*Played 3, Lost 3. Impeccable.

[Natlaw]

Executive summary of NAF’s theory:

@Natlaw's summary

Lynch players with anti-town behavior first. Even if it is town making mistakes, it’s no real loss because especially the first days chance to lynch town is big anyway.
The benefit is that scum cannot hide behind town anti-town behavior. Anti-town behavior includes (but not limited to) fluff posts and lurking.
Otherwise lynch players with pro-scum behavior, because simply scum cannot win without it. Pro-scum behavior doesn’t have to be anti-town, it can even be pro-town (scum has extra information to exploit). To detect Pro-scum behavior, use the mantra ‘If I were scum, would I do that?’.
Of course, use real facts (investigations, etc) when they conclusively point to scum.

To apply the theory to the current game:
-DiggitCamara says pedescribe’s slip is pro-scum (fishing by trying to get someone else to say they got a cool role PM). I find that a bit hard to believe (‘scum would never do that’ which peekercpa warns against, more on that later.
-Diggit sees confirmation in pede’s replies. Rereading them, I can see that they are anti-town. Pede should just have said ‘I meant the color looked cool, that’s all’. His panicky ‘could be a power role. But really my role is boring’ just draws attention.

-macey’s fishing is definitely pro-scum: the information asked is useless to confirm a mason, unless you are one. But a masons doesn’t need to confirm a mason!
I have no problem with him being lynch leader.

So if I were scum, what would I do on day one? Big chance town will lynch wrong, so basically nothing except appearing pro-town. Of course, if you can fuel the fires of suspicion…

@peekercpa

Well, couple of first Day observations thus far.

pede You done screwed up. Don’t know what it means at this point. You are pretty experienced so this is total WIFOM for me. Not sure what kind of game you are playing, yet.

He has claimed mason without counter-claim. You already said that this argument wasn’t relevant anymore here, so why repeat it?

Pleo You vigged me last game when I was town power because you didn’t like my play style. Okie Dokie. Shoot I hope you are not a vig again. And I did not think you were fishing.

JsexDon’t know that we have ever been in a game together. You are referenced frequently in every game that I play. Makes you kind of Oggish.

This reminded me of MHaye’s ‘don’t hold grudges’ post. Why brings this up?

Naf and Mhaye seem to be playing center of the court. Another WIFOM.

Our across the pond friends. Hard to get a read on.

I’m one of those, but why not name names instead of letting us a guess? Why not explicitly state why ‘playing center of the court’ is WIFOM?

BUT fishy clearly mis-characterized Pleo’s play in driving or starting a wagon or whatever. At least in my opinion. I’ve been on the other side of these and while I think pleo should be chastised for his approach, to characterize it as a wagon driver seems a little forced.

Vote Thing Fish

Yes, this moved Thing Fish on my suspicion list as well. But if he is scum, scum can safely vote for him, since macey has a solid lead.

Personally, I’ d just as soon lynch Hal or blam since they are not contributory. But since these types of sentiments have about a snowballs chance screw it, what is the point. Let’s lynch the participants. I will laugh my ass off when we get a scum or PFK that wins a game without ever posting one thing. Can’t get rid of them because “non town” would never do that.

A whole lot of pennies.

Another finger point, but immediately backing off. Plus an ‘all current votes are stupid’ cherry on top.
If you wanted to lynch lurkers, why bring it up so late? Afaik, it has not been discussed Today.

To recap, still like to hear from Chucara and Rapier42. I don’t disagree with lynching Thing Fish or macey, but I think peekercpa is being anti-town:
unvote DiggitCamara
vote peekercpa

[Natlaw]

I see I’m dancing chairs with amrussell :D. But as I said, I don’t like that post either, but didn’t want to vote him to avoid the ‘you just vote him because he FOS’ed you’ accusation.

[Chucara]

First off a few brief comments:

amrussell: To be truthful, I did feel that quote (Natlaw’s) was kinda misrepresentative… at least, I found it weird that he had left out quite an important part. I didn’t want to mention it, because I figured it might be me being overly defensive.

DiggitCamera: I’m not sure what you mean by “ugly participation”, but if you actually read the post about the masons, I’m advocating that masons should NOT claim…

Once again, I’m sorry that I haven’t been able to post anything other than strategy discussions until now. I’ve been busy, and quite frankly, I haven’t seen anything that makes me want to cast a vote on someone. There have been a few “slips”, but nothing that leaves me with more than just a slight bitter taste in my mouth.

I am once again taking a little heat for “thinking” out loud. So just to clarify things a little.

1. I thought (notice past tense) that doing the whole name thing was a good idea. I hadn’t thought it through completely.

2. I’m not sure about the Alpha/Beta claim, but all I did ask was if it was possible to find out if power roles had it as well. Because I think it might be a great tool for town if we can divide the pool of player in two parts, knowing the relative number of scum in each pile. I’ll elaborate if anyone is confused about this.

Related to this: What does everyone think about the alpha/beta status claim? The way I see it, we might get some good information from it, and I don’t see how scum can benefit. And now that we have an outed power role, we can learn if power roles have alpha beta status as well. If they don’t I’m not so sure there’s an advantage. At the very least, it deserves discussion, IMO.

3. I started talking about the ideas because I felt there wasn’t any discussion going on and I hoped it might get things started.

4. I stopped by several times before X-Mas set in, but I feel this has been an extremely slow day one. Therefore I felt that since I had nothing new to contribute, I’d not post anything.

5. I need to either pick a more masculine nickname or draw a huge dong in my signature… I’m a dude

6. Anyone who’s played with me earlier knows I have a tendency to post my thoughts rather unfiltered especially that the beginning of the game.

7. The vote

To keep it brief, a few people have been pinging me:

hawkeyeop: For suggesting that masons out themselves and do the votes for us. IMO that would leave us with a number dead masons and absolutely no (voting) information on who scum is. However, given that I myself have also presented to bad ideas, I can relate.

Natlaw: Made a weird post in response to one of mine… Cutting a quote in a strange place, and making an odd comment on why I wasn’t asking scum if they had alpha/beta roles. (I’d say that one is pretty obvious). I chose not to express this earlier, as I wanted to see if anyone else had noticed it. Still, all in all, I count this as a nul ltell.

macey: Has been accused of fishing. While it could surely be interpreted as that, I’m not sure if I can fully reach the conclusion of a fishing attempt. I might be coloured some of you seem to think I’m fishing.

Thing Fish: I really don’t like the “you must pick between these two candidates”. It just feels like scum sealing the deal. It’s a gut feeling, but for day one, it’s the best I can do.

vote Thing Fish

[Thing_Fish]

Natlaw, you make excellent points, but I’m sure that I will be only the first of many to tell you that you have caught “peeker tells”. He always posts in a stream of consciousness style and often it seems that he is posting late at night with a great big frosty mug of Scotch by his side. He actually is being a lot more toned down than usual in this game. Not to say that you shouldn’t vote for him if you think his behavior is anti-Town, just saying that he’s always like this.

FTR, I am fine with the macey lynch. I doubt he’s scum, but as Hawkeye said above, if we let Town newbies get away with this stuff, the scum will be doing it next.

In other news, **Pleonast **is still scummy. Details to follow.

[brewha]

4hrs by my watch. Unnofficial vote count for now:

Macey - 6
Thing Fish - 4
Pedescribe - 2
Pleonast - 2
Chucara - 2
Cookies - 1
Blam - 1
Rapier - 1
Jsexton - 1

Looks like 20 votes. We still got a few people silent.

[Natlaw]

I’ve got:
macey - 7
Thing Fish - 4
Chucara - 2
Pleonast - 1
Rapier - 1
peekercpa - 1
Cookies - 1
Blam - 1
pedescride - 0
JSexton - 0

18 out of 27.

[MHaye]

Brewha : Dusk is at about 6:00pm, or five hours from now.

I’ve just finished a reread of Night Zero, and am starting on Day 1. I should have a vote down before the end of the Day (I have to go out for about an hour, but I should still have time to vote.)

From Night 0, I got a couple of things that rubbed me the wrong way, in addition to Pedescribe’s slip. That’s no longer an issue, unless by some remote chance there are no masons in this game, an eventuality that I’m not prepared to waste time thinking about now. They were bad ideas, which aren’t themselves scummy. The flaws in Chuchara’s idea had been exposed by the end of Night 0, and his reaction to the problems didn’t make me any more suspicious.

The other I’ll discuss after I’ve reread this thread, in order to take any comments made Today into account. I also want to hold off weighing in on the two claim suggestions until after the reread, for the same reason.

Back to the beginning I go.

On preview : my vote count spreadsheet agrees with Natlaw.