Mafia - Game in progress [Edited title]

[Suburban_Plankton]

@DiggitCamara

I have been thinking about this, and honestly it shouldn’t be my call to make, but it’s tuesday and honestly I don’t want everyone to have to back off at the last minute. So, please consider unvoting Babale…

No, if you can’t figure out why, I won’t spell it out for you.

Considering the entire case on **Babale **was basically “lynch the lurker”, this shouldn’t be a hard sell.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

@Dizzymrslizzy

My week is about to get really busy. I wanted to see what transpired today before placing a vote, but it looks like no one is participating.

Vote: Lightfoot
I know you said you weren’t ignoring my question, but I kind of would like an answer before I give you a pass on today. I will be back before EOD, so I’ll take my vote off if I’m satisfied

Vote: Babale
I’ve read the cases on Babale over the last couple of days, but I was focused elsewhere, so I was willing to give him a pass, but at this point, he’s lurking at best…and it doesn’t look good.

My last is:
Vote: Cookies

You’ve been up my rear end for days now because of the vote I placed on D2, but on D2 I went back to look at your voting record. We had a tie most of the day, and you completely stayed out of it, and didn’t have an opinion/vote on either of the top candidates Chucara/Choie/texcat. Almost every other player in the game was participating in that lynch, and you had a random (at that time) vote on Stan. Care to explain why you didn’t want to weigh in on the active lynch candidates?

My case on Stan wasn’t random, it wasn’t popular, but it certainly wasn’t random. I’m not going to apologize or otherwise justify voting for scum while not joining the mobs that were busy lynching townies early in the game, and why should I? Sometimes I get lucky in my early reads. See my last game prior to this one, Looking Glass Mafia on the Geeb, and a few others that my memory has already purged.

[Johnny_Bravo]

Unvote Babale

Uggh. That’s irritating. I wish he’d been subbed in before getting outed. Not that I blame **Diggit **for doing what he has to do to keep us from lynching a townie.

[Dizzymrslizzy]

unvote babale

[Dizzymrslizzy]

That’s fine Cookies that your vote wasn’t in on the town vs town debacle of that day but there were other candidates and you stayed far away from them too and placed an overly easy vote with a weak case. It happened to turn out in your favor in the end, but still is odd IMO

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

@Dizzymrslizzy

That’s fine Cookies that your vote wasn’t in on the town vs town debacle of that day but there were other candidates and you stayed far away from them too and placed an overly easy vote with a weak case. It happened to turn out in your favor in the end, but still is odd IMO

Which is it? Random? Overly easy? Weak? Or odd? What ‘overly easy’ even mean in the context of using it as a data point of suspicion on me?

Here are some exchanges I went back and found starting back on Day 1, page 11:

@Meeko

ATPG Why does Cookies get a pass?

@Dizzymrslizzy

I’m wondering this as well…Is there a specific reason why we should should vote for anyone who has 2+ votes “Except Cookies” Why is Cookies exempt???

It sounds very chummy chummy, like he’s a partner of some sort…I know you better than for you to make that kind of statement though…So lets here the reasoning please

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

Do you find anything I’ve done as particularly scummy, Dizzy? Do you find Meeko’s or Santislaus’ cases against me compelling? Call me crazy, but lack of a compelling case is usually why people don’t feel inclined to vote for someone.

@Dizzymrslizzy

I’m responding as reading, so I don’t know where this has gone if anywhere, but to answer your question…

No I don’t find anything YOU did as Scummy.

I find Pizza’s Comment: “Vote anyone except for Cookies” very WIFOM, and I just want to know why he singled you out.

We have a lot more solid evidence to filter this exchange through now via Pizza and Stan’s flips and Meeko’s basic withdrawal from participating in the game, and I’m not the one who comes out of it smelling like scum.

[Johnny_Bravo]

@Suburban_Plankton

As far as the “mysterious message”: Why do you think that anyone else should have received it? Obviously, there was a combination of actions/powers that resulted in that message being sent. What makes you think that the same combination of events should necessarily have repeated itself?

I can think of three pretty straightforward reasons for that message:

1. Someone tried to kill you, but you were protected by our Doc.
2. Someone tried to kill you, but they were roleblocked.
3. Someone tried to kill you, but you’re bulletproof.
   3a) You didn’t know you were bulletproof and figured the message was due to #1 or #2, and figured that putting the message out there would strengthen your town claim later on.
   3b) You knew you were bulletproof, but still figured that revealing that message would do you more good than ill.

If #1 is the case, then the Doc could tell us that, but that would necessitate a reveal on his/her part and still wouldn’t prove that you were town.

If #2 is the case, then one of us is a roleblocker who may have pretty good idea of who a wolf or the SK is. That might be worth a reveal, unless they blocked Pleonast on that night. If one of us is a roleblocker, I’d ask them to look back at their Night 1 block and consider letting us know who they targeted. If you didn’t block Pleonast then you probably found a bad guy.

If #3 is the case, then you’re probably scum or the sk, since the mafia wiki indicates that bulletproof is an uncommon town power. What I’m not sure about is the likelihood of having a hidden bulletproof in this (or any) game.

[Johnny_Bravo]

@Johnny_Bravo

If you didn’t block Pleonast then you probably found a bad guy.

Unless Suburban is bulletproof. In fact, if we have a roleblocker who, on Night 1, blocked somebody who has already been killed or otherwise revealed, then that’s evidence for possibility #3.

[wombat99]

@Dizzymrslizzy

That’s fine Cookies that your vote wasn’t in on the town vs town debacle of that day but there were other candidates and you stayed far away from them too and placed an overly easy vote with a weak case. It happened to turn out in your favor in the end, but still is odd IMO

I can see what **Dizzy’s **saying here. **Cookies **may have been deliberately bussing **Stan **early on and perhaps didn’t give other cases a thorough consideration because she knows who is a Wolf and who isn’t.

Vote Cookies

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

And your continued survival, wombatt, despite low participation levels in the game and voting to lynching Townies left and right could may have less to do with you being a lowly vanilla who isn’t a threat to scum and instead be due to having scum buddies that don’t want to kill you. This is a fun game that can be played with everyone at this point.

Show me how you both have demonstrably ‘carefully considered’ every case made in the game by everyone else and then we’ll talk.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

[oog] A preemptive apology if I come across as manic or fidgety. I’m freebasing caffeine after submitting a CV and cover letter in the middle of the night for an entry-level position at a local Foundation that supports local non-profits and community organizations as I take a long-time-coming leap of faith away from my 13 year career in the private sector in my quest for a more meaningful and productive life. Wheee! [/oog]

[Astral_Rejection]

[oog]

Good luck, cookies!

[/oog]

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Thanks!

Vote LightFoot may as well try to get that bit of unfinished business moving. You’ve time to consider things is just about used up.

[DiggitCamara]

So. I have been thinking about people to vote for/against.

And I noted one thing. I usually suck at this. Why? Because I choose on gut feelings. Which is wrong.

I should try to use some facts I think usually trip Scum up.

Fact 1.: Scum have perfect knowledge. (or at least more knowledge than your average Townfolk). So their voting records might skew scummy, weirdly enough.

Fact 2.: When townfolk come under attack, Scum will rush to defend them. Not obviously but very, very slightly. They’ll try to hide the fact but will, for instance, only vote reluctantly against them

Fact 3: More often than not, Scum will try to cozy up to known townsfolk. This take different forms, but in the end it’s recognizable

I think I recognize someone who’s doing all this. Read for yourselves.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

**
Vote Ryjae
Vote Stanislaus
Vote wombat
**

For stated suspicions and/or votes against Babale due to questions and posts regarding the Barn.

Everything I have read from the mod indicates that there is not a role or mechanic that will provide any perfect information about what goes on with the Barn BUT it is a new mechanic and it is not unreasonable for some people to get confused about it or have questions. Occam’s razor would argue, imho, that confusion and questions about a new mechanic, especially coming from a player without much experience, would be a null tell at worst.

The only scum motivation that could be apply to Babale’s play, if the Barn is indeed uncrackably anonymous, would be to sow confusion/doubt over a mechanic that the scum can’t even manipulate. I think that is considerably less likely than the null tell scenario above, ergo my suspicion has been ping’d by the three I have voted for, whom I suspect of voting opportunistically.

Scum vote (if Cookies is truly scum, this vote practically exhonerates wombat, by the way)

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

Don’t forget that Pizza wasn’t the one to suggest implementing his plan, I believe that was Guiri in this post: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15925710&postcount=160

Though I may have missed an earlier reference. Regardless, I think it is prudent to resist the temptation of making him out to be the sole scummy scapegoat at this time wrt The Plan. I don’t think putting it all on Guiri works either. If they’re in cahoots it is a big fat gambit. I’m more interested in what is said about The Plan which is much less tainted by metagaming.

Defends belaguered townfolk.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

It seems pretty clear to me that he’s voting in self defense, and he’s hardly the first mafia player to use that justification.

Whether or not that is a good idea on Day 1 vs something like Day 8 is up for debate though. I don’t think he’s going to talk anyone out of suspecting him that way, but I think it is a null tell as far as adding more suspicion to him.

Ditto

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

On Diggit:

If no counter-claims ensue, I will be looking very closely at everyone who voted for him.

On choie:

Burby was, I believe, the first one to openly state concern about the white paint vs blue text, and he continued to express that concern over multiple posts. I don’t personally find that really suspicious myself, and I do wonder how choie became the lynch leader for basically the same concerns while Burby has gotten a pass. Burby got some attention for his mysterious message reveal, but no one has taken him to task for his questions about the paint. This begs examination of the choie voters in my book. Her self-vote doesn’t help things, but it seems more like a null tell to me because Townies can get frustrated and say/do not so helpful things.

As for the lack of traction on yesterday’s vote recipients, that doesn’t really bother me either. Day 1 is often not a source for insightful cases that stick. I’m not really inclined to vote for Ryjae again at this point. I think there’s more likely to be scum in the choie voters.

Case in point, Stanislaus, and just to make things interesting and sort of contradict myself, I do actually have some carry-over from yesterDay on him as well, specifically his justification on his vote for Babale, which I see he’s carrying over to Today. He hasn’t liked my questioning that justification and he parked a vote on me yesterDay for my trouble. He said that vote for me was due in part to not changing my mind when it was pointed out that I had misinterpreted some posts, but the fact of the matter is that misinterpretation didn’t have any effect on my thesis, which is that I fail to see a scum motivation for Babale trying to sew confusion/paranoia about the barn mechanic being vulnerable to some sort of role being able to figure out who wrote what because it seems quite clear to me that there is no way for the scum to manipulate anything with respect to the Barn other than the phrasing of the individual messages they post. Townies don’t need a motivation to be paranoid though, as it is what Townies do, and Babale strikes me as a paranoid Townie in her play yesterday.

He’s also couching his vote on Babale in some sort of meta policy about trying to stick to his previous suspicions consistently. This makes no sense to me and is a bad policy, even if that makes me sound like a hypocrite since I am carrying my vote for him over from yesterDay. “Because I voted for them yesterday” is not going to persuade anyone to share your point of view, so why include it as if it is an additional justification?

Vote Stanislaus

Defends multiple townfolk.
Votes for scum.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

These are my feelings as well. It is a null tell at best for people to get frustrated. I just don’t see a choie lynch as being the best choice at this point. But I can’t get excited about the case(s) against Chucara either. I do prefer people to vote where their suspicions lie instead of feeling compelled to just pick between lynch leaders, but that’s is exactly what people often feel pressured to do or are actually pressured to do. Wasn’t that a facet of the whole Pizza plan? To have this elaborate nomination process and then have people choose out of the vote leaders? It sounds fine and dandy but what if the nomination process doesn’t happen to net scum? It might be awhile before we know if any of the people gathering the most votes are scum or not.

Defends belaguered TownFolk.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

How new are you to the game of Mafia? Serious question. Your posts regarding the Mason claim do definitely ping my fish-o-meter (speaking of which, I’m surprised Meeko hasn’t accused you of fishing yet as he is quite fond of that particular accusation), but I’ve been giving you some room assuming you haven’t played a lot as it is a null tell between scummers/pfks, or eager information-hungry newbies, or information-hungry power roles to go fishing for information.

Another little nugget of advice that many experienced players will give you is to let Power roles play their role and you play yours. Whether it is Suburban who is actually a Townie Mason as he claims with some sort of perfect information that has him advocating an early reveal, or a stealthy band of Townie Masons staying quiet in spite of a scummy Suburban baiting them to claim and they are not taking the bait, it is often a good idea to give them some room to do so. They’re making informed decisions about their roles. It sucks when you can’t see into magic bags and black boxes, but that’s the game. Satisfying your burning curiosities shouldn’t be a high priority for anyone else.

Cozies up to known TownFolk (the Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing strategy)

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

The barn message merely reinforces my votes on you for the past two days. Am I being pandered to and led astray? Possibly. But considering I was pretty much the only person voting for you the past couple of days, I’m not sure what the long con motivation would be.

Attacks (now) known Scum.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

Ok, yesterday I said I’d go back and look at the people who voted for Diggit prior to his Mason claim if no one came around to counter claim him. As no one has, I have looked and in the spirit of multi-voting, and in spite of Silver Jan having voted him and flipping Town, I am still inclined to believe his claim and inclined to think that there is scum in those who voted for him.

**
Vote Mahaloth
Vote TexCat
Vote DizzyLizzy
Vote Johnny Bravo**

Cozies up to known Town (for practically no reason).

Probably filler votes (wouldn’t discount at least one Scum among them, though)

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I’m a she. And the core of my ‘defense’ of Babale is that I don’t see a scum motivation for saying thing things that s/he(?) said early in the game about the barn that led to her picking up some votes either directly or indirectly due to people not licking how s/he defended it. Also, lack of participation is secondary in my case against you to what I see as a potentially opportunistic vote on Diggit.

The issues with keeping up with a game in a single thread is a handicap (for lack of a better word) that we all have.

Defending belaguered Town.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

For better or worse, I’m still leaning Town on Babale. I still don’t see a scum or third party motivation for the Day 1 paranoia on the barn, and Stan The Now Known Scum was voting for her (is Babale a her or a he?) out of the gate on Days 1 and 2.

If Diggit ends up getting killed without overtly confirming the third Mason/Witch, then the third is effectively vanilla, unless s/he can point to some sort of covertly confirming breadcrumb or secret code that the rest of us will swallow. Since they can’t apparently communicate, I would think any covert options are going to be limited.

Losing Diggit would suck and I certainly hope it doesn’t happen, but I felt the same way about Guiri when I didn’t know what he was too, and low and behold he ended up dead all of a sudden.

Two confirmed and trusted players being able to coordinate in public can be useful. Do I know for a fact that they would prove to be useful in our current situation? No, but I don’t really like Texcat’s vote on USCDiver for simply arguing the other side of the strategic coin from the strategy that she’s arguing, which is to keep the third Mason under wraps. Both strategies have their potential advantages so I don’t see one over the other as worthy of a vote. So Texcat, what else do you have on USCDiver? This is the first time you’ve voted for him.

Cozying up to known Town.

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

OK, caught up.

This is my first game with ortho, and I believe ortho’s first game? But I cannot help but read his (few) posts in my uncle Carl’s voice. My uncle is a jokester/ham, and his tongue-in-cheek schtick that he pulls constantly in the kitchen is that he is forever being ganged up on and ‘abused’ by his loving wife and his two loving kids, my cousins.

I’m biased about my uncle though, and I think he’s awesome.

Trying not to apply such a ‘trusted’ filter to ortho, his posts do get my attention as a bit too smarmy. In particular, throwing in a vote for the claimed Mason seems like ‘scum wouldn’t do that’ theater.

Prior to today I was about 99.9% unaware that he was playing, which is another strike against him.

Vote ortho

I’m going to put another vote down, this one for Dizzy.

Vote Dizzy

My suspicion of Dizzy hasn’t gone anywhere. I voted for her yesterday in the pre-Diggit-claim-voter pack, and that suspicion was not diminished in spite of her voting to lynch Stan. Apparent issues with the board are a null tell, but what isn’t a null tell was when she tried to suggest that I was being a hypocrite because I was somehow giving Bable a pass for being new while persecuting Dizzy for being new, which puts a significant spin on my motivations that doesn’t sit well with me.

“I’m voting for otho but it doesn’t feel right”. + cozying up to known Town

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I don’t play under the assumption that scum are stupid or not paying attention. I think LightFoot is more likely to be a Town Power who made a slip and got frustrated with herself and the people who called attention to it, but frustration won’t help us find scum. What might help us find scum, as has already been mentioned, is acknowledging that a target landed on your back as soon as you made your post and sharing any information that might have been gleaned through the apparent power. It would allow the other town powers to make a more informed decision about whether or not to try and protect/protect/etc Lightfoot.

Cozying up to (soon to be known?) Town?

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I’m decidedly ambivalent about Lightfoot. My hunch is that scum/3rd party would be less likely to make such a slip due to the hyper-awareness factor, but the same logic would apply to Town power roles too. Everything she’s said since the slip is a null tell that I parse as frustration about the slip and having it pointed out. Any player of any faction could reasonably be frustrated.

I’ve had Babale low on my list of likely scum since Day 1, but s/he has been pretty much a non-entity since the early posts about misgivings on the barn. I’m willing to burn a multi-vote to prod for participation at this point.

Vote Babale

I am comfortable with putting a vote again on

Vote Dizzy

She was an early voter on the pre-claiming Diggit. So was Townie Mahaloth, but I still think the logic is sound that scum would be likely to jump on an early wagon forming against anyone who was of a different faction. Texcat and Johnny are the other two that make up the original four of my multi-votes back when I first floated the idea, but they’ve both moved off of my radar over the last cycle, whereas Dizzy has remained. She cried foul at not getting a pass from me for being new, when that wasn’t accurate or relevant. And most recently, she seems to have inverted perceptions from mine about the possible mechanics of zombies that make me suspect that she’s directly involved in those mechanics.

(snip).

Cozying up to known Town.
Voting reluctantly against (now known) Town.
…dunno about Dizzy

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I posit that there are scum/3rd parties who voted for Diggit prior to his claiming, because scum and third parties are going to be hard-pressed to resist an opportunity to slap a vote down on someone who is a member of a different faction, particularly a Mason advocating an avant garde idea like all of the Mason’s claiming early. He is all-but-confirmed Town at this point, and was pretty much in that state once a cycle had passed with no one going public against his Mason claim.

Once some time had passed with no counter-claim, I went back and looked at who voted for him before he claimed. It is my attempt to turn a pig’s ear (that one of our Mason’s ended up claiming so early, for defending a barn message and strategy that is valid but non-traditional) into a hopefully a silk purse. This particular pig’s ear seems to be quite stubborn though, since we have a dead Mason who may still be alive and confirmed Town if he’d followed Diggit’s suggestion and my litmus test turned out to be incorrect as far as Mahaloth was concerned. I still think it is a viable litmus test though.

Cozying up to known Town.
Vote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Ok fine, let’s mix it up.

Some things y’all may want to know to help deal with everyone’s growing 3rd party problems:

-Meeko is, or at least was at one point, vanilla Town
-Dizzy was blocked on Night 3, a Night on which I will point out that there were 2 kills and not 3
-We had nothing to do with Suburban’s alleged note or attack
-Good luck with LightFoot

Consider those as a bonus batch of Barn posts for hopefully mutual benefit.

The Town is in trouble from many different angles. Fun times

I had a nice long run considering Skeezix apparently forced my hand on a perfectly good long-con bus vote on Stan that was intended to age slowly like fine WIFOM.

I always get more heat when I’m Town so it was only a matter of time anyway.

Arroooo

[wombat99]

Dizzy? Would you like to comment on what you were doing on Night 3?

Lightfoot? Anything to share now, has enough time passed yet?

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

Arroooo

This DarkSide you speak of… is it Republican?

Are you secretly Richard Nixon?

[wombat99]

**Vote Dizzy

Vote Lightfoot**

I’m leaving my vote on Cookies, but my guess is that she doesn’t have a Wolf power role, and it might be better to leave her for now and go after the SK Today. I tentatively trust the info provided by **Cookies **- Wolves have as much incentive as Town to see the SK dead.

Between **Dizzy **and Lightfoot, I’d prefer a **Dizzy **lynch. The case against **Lightfoot **is based on her not recognizing the vanilla PM, which can be explained by her having a power role; if **Dizzy **was blocked and that block prevented a kill, and it wasn’t a Wolf kill, then that’s pretty damning. The question is, would there be any other explanation for only 2 kills that night?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I am not a cook!

Well, actually I do ok in the kitchen. When I make the effort.

[USCDiver]

Huh. I was pretty sure Cookies was either the Town Cop or a Scum based on her early votes on Stan, but I could never quite get the evidence to line up enough for a vote. Thanks for your hard work Diggit!

vote Cookies

A wolf in the hand is better than anything else right now.

ETA: That should obviously be “After the Town Cop was killed, I couldn’t get the evidence to line up…”