Mafia Reunion - Day Two

[Captain_Klutz]

@LightFoot

Captain Klutz I thought I read somewhere that the switch owners were balanced *but I don’t remember how many there are.
*there is an ‘off switcher’ and an ‘on switcher’ I think I recall. one at least has to be Scum- wouldn’t you think?

Mod information on switches is rather limited. We have been told the following:

In addition to the PMs shown at the location above, some players will receive an additional PM. In this game, certain powers will run off of switches, which are simple toggles. Each power is associated with two switches, each given to a different player. Activation or deactivation of these switches is an independent ability that can be performed at any Dawn or Dusk as a separate action that does not prevent the player from using any personal abilities.

Switches may be flipped at Night only, flipping back to “on” every Night. If they affect a Day Power, the next Day will be the power affected. If they affect a Night Power, the current Night will be affected.

(you can see both of these posts at the end of the Night 0 thread)

In addition, there are town and scum roles that can set ALL switches either on or off.

Everything else has been speculation. Last time the switches were held by scum and the serial killer, but this time, who knows. I would have guessed that a town power switch would be held by each scum group. So it takes a lot of guts to come forward and say that you hold one, and makes brewha look more likely town than scum

Note that the switches are toggles. They are not switched to ON or OFF, they are just toggled. So if both switch holders do the same thing, the power is ON, if they do different things the power is OFF (subject to being overridden by the power roles)

[Khameleon]

@AngeloftheNorth

Idle hates playing scum, and all of this is circumstantial evidence of being scum to me.

For some reason I was (clearly not) remembering the opposite and that Idle didn’t like playing Town, but I actually think you’re right. The game I was thinking of was a long time ago and I don’t even remember what board it was on. I just remember Idle being very “disappointed” (sorry Idle) about his role and basically compromising himself out of the game. Anyway, perhaps you’re right and it’s worth keeping an eye on him. That said, I wouldn’t vote for him based on this.

[Meeko]

@sachertorte

What I’m suggesting is precisely to counter any attempt for the second lynch to be taken over by nefarious elements, yet still avail ourselves to its power.

In a wholly separate process from game-mechanics-based voting, everyone votes for TWO players (or ‘no lynch’ or ‘no second lynch’ if that is the desire).
This, separate voting process forms the ‘vote record.’
Then we assign players to enact the actual lynch with the formal voting required by the game. The important thing in a ‘second vote’ is to make sure the majority has a voice in who the second candidate is. Otherwise, those voting for the primary lynch remove themselves from voting for the second lynch, which as you say, could be bad.

I believe this is what we should do. I have no illusions that we will actually achieve it, but there it is.

I’ll also note that with two scum groups there are also two scum kills. The second lynch is pretty much there to balance that, don’t you think?

This, separate voting process forms the ‘vote record.’
Then we assign players to enact the actual lynch with the formal voting required by the game.

Vote Sachertorte

This has the “synergy” if you can call that, of Chronos’ voting program, AND “leash the vig”.

You lose me between the two, and leave me in Pingsville.

This is two concepts that fail spectacularly on their own, and you want to shotgun marry them. … I’d go so far as to say, there is probably an immediate and direct, …clear and present danger? … To town, if we do this.

Ok, but I’m too harsh.

The only thing this does, is sow more confusion and … Busy work… For town… While Anti-town can still collaborate with their factions… And get on false wagons to oblige your so called safeguards.

Fair warning.

And now for something completely different.

It’s like the Haggle game I was in with OreDigger77 [IIRC] they wanted me to do something, and dressed it up real nice, and used appealing terms. However, the end result, devoid of terms only suited to helm them more, better, faster.

End of warning.
.
.
.
Does the multilynch, in any form, deprive town of tempo, time, and testimony?

Tempo: that is we lose in-game days immediately.
Time: we can’t use IRL Out of game days to reason, and actually use any and al information, of various degrees of authentic-ness
Testimony: Mod Reveals.

Do most victories for town come by hitting fast-forward? Or do they come from some slow to form “oops” followed, in the respective threads , by an "oh Damn…Once Town sees this, they win?"

I’m just saying, most games for town are downhill and over a cliff, at a normal speed… The game is unsafe at any speed… Let’s not accelerate.

[Meeko]

NETA: Full aware, that if it isn’t already a “thing” by any other phrasing, ““Town’s Tempo, Time and Testimony”” will probably end up on my epitaph. That is, my Meta Epitaph. I fear I’ve gone and just made my legacy with this.
.
Oh well. I fully embrace it.

[LightFoot]

@Captain_Klutz

Mod information on switches is rather limited. We have been told the following:
(you can see both of these posts at the end of the Night 0 thread)

In addition, there are town and scum roles that can set ALL switches either on or off.

Everything else has been speculation. Last time the switches were held by scum and the serial killer, but this time, who knows. I would have guessed that a town power switch would be held by each scum group. So it takes a lot of guts to come forward and say that you hold one, and makes brewha look more likely town than scum

Note that the switches are toggles. They are not switched to ON or OFF, they are just toggled. So if both switch holders do the same thing, the power is ON, if they do different things the power is OFF (subject to being overridden by the power roles)

BAH i almost remembered what I read. [sub] ( not that I have had any stress lately) [/sub] Last time I saw switches they were toggles but I remembered the bits i this one wrong - or I read it wrong-- either way- thanks for the refresher

[Idle_Thoughts]

@Hockey_Monkey

I believe he is saying you are normally more prolific and it’s inconsistent for you to only have three Day One posts with little content.

Weak? Somewhat, but not really all *that *weak.

Why you so jumpy?

Well, it must be because I’m scum, of course!

Seriously, though, jumpy? You’ll know it if I’m jumpy and this isn’t jumpy…it’s simply me saying it’s a weak reason to vote for me.

@Biotop

I know you always claim on Day 1, Idle Thoughts.

Is it most common that you claim in the first post?

Usually yeah, but I was mostly busy during Day One.

I don’t think AngeloftheNorth is shady in itself for the weak vote…but consider me putting the “FOS” on Hockey for trying to make it look like I’m being “jumpy”.

[Khameleon]

@Captain_Klutz

Everything else has been speculation. Last time the switches were held by scum and the serial killer, but this time, who knows. I would have guessed that a town power switch would be held by each scum group. So it takes a lot of guts to come forward and say that you hold one, and makes brewha look more likely town than scum

Note that the switches are toggles. They are not switched to ON or OFF, they are just toggled. So if both switch holders do the same thing, the power is ON, if they do different things the power is OFF (subject to being overridden by the power roles)

I also would have assumed that the Town power switches were held by players in the Wolf and Mafia teams, however, considering Vigilante is a Town role that has the potential to be bad for Town it’s conceivable that one of the switches is held by a Townie.

I did however go back and look at the Vigilante role description and it quite explicitly says that “You don’t get to not kill someone”. There is nothing about the possibility of circumstances that may alter this, which makes me wonder about Brewha’s claim. That said, I’m trying to think of a reason for the claim. Would there be an advantage for Scum to claim to have a Town switch?

[Khameleon]

Um, I have no idea why the role quote repeated itself at the top of my post.

[Drain_Bead]

@Captain_Klutz

Aaah, so you thought it was a slip, not a soft claim. And yet, this is the first time you have called it a town slip. Up until now you have always been happy to call it a soft claim.

When did you first believe it was a “town slip” rather than a soft claim?

Generally when calling it a soft claim, I’ve been quoting another’s words about it. I didn’t think it was intentional based on the general tenor of the post. It just felt like he was saying he’d claim early if he had to, without thinking of the optics of that statement and realizing that it would generally only be made if we could lose something important if he didn’t have the chance to claim in time.
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[Drain_Bead]

@Khameleon

I also would have assumed that the Town power switches were held by players in the Wolf and Mafia teams, however, considering Vigilante is a Town role that has the potential to be bad for Town it’s conceivable that one of the switches is held by a Townie.

I did however go back and look at the Vigilante role description and it quite explicitly says that “You don’t get to not kill someone”. There is nothing about the possibility of circumstances that may alter this, which makes me wonder about Brewha’s claim. That said, I’m trying to think of a reason for the claim. Would there be an advantage for Scum to claim to have a Town switch?

Maybe if it went to one of their Godfather type roles? We’re short on investigation unless the Understudy has been paying attention.
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[brewha]

@LightFoot

Captain Klutz I thought I read somewhere that the switch owners were balanced *but I don’t remember how many there are.
*there is an ‘off switcher’ and an ‘on switcher’ I think I recall. one at least has to be Scum- wouldn’t you think?

If that’s the case, I’m the off switcher. My PM states that each night the switch is turned on. I can either turn it off or leave it alone.

If it’s a balanced system, I gotta believe there’s a scum on switcher.

Then again, how would that work? If the default is on, and they decide to switch it on, what would happen?

My PM specifically says that I can turn it off - it doesn’t say that I can toggle it to the other position.

[brewha]

@snfaulkner

You buy a winery and start serving it up by the boxfull.

I don’t have a clue what you mean by this.

[bufftabby]

@Khameleon

For some reason I was (clearly not) remembering the opposite and that Idle didn’t like playing Town, but I actually think you’re right. The game I was thinking of was a long time ago and I don’t even remember what board it was on. I just remember Idle being very “disappointed” (sorry Idle) about his role and basically compromising himself out of the game. Anyway, perhaps you’re right and it’s worth keeping an eye on him. That said, I wouldn’t vote for him based on this.

There was a big to-do about his D1 claim recently, in Dante’s game that specifically had a rule about not claiming. He stated then that he hated being scum.

[brewha]

@Captain_Klutz

Note that the switches are toggles. They are not switched to ON or OFF, they are just toggled. So if both switch holders do the same thing, the power is ON, if they do different things the power is OFF (subject to being overridden by the power roles)

I addressed this in a previous post. I should have made one big post instead of individual replies.

Anyway, my power is only to turn the switch from on to off. there isn’t a blind toggle this time.

[Johnny_Bravo]

@Meeko

You are voting me, because I’m not voting you.

I’m voting you because you took your vote off of a case you were confident in (that happens to be me, but that doesn’t matter), and moved it to one that you were not confident in. Your jabber about “teams” makes no sense to me - you appear to be coming up with justifications for your vote well after the fact. If you’d taken the time to justify your move at the time, that would have been better.

@Meeko

I’ve seen this before. I’m not going to help you not sell your house, Squidward.

I have zero idea what you mean by this.

[brewha]

@Khameleon

I also would have assumed that the Town power switches were held by players in the Wolf and Mafia teams, however, considering Vigilante is a Town role that has the potential to be bad for Town it’s conceivable that one of the switches is held by a Townie.

I did however go back and look at the Vigilante role description and it quite explicitly says that “You don’t get to not kill someone”. There is nothing about the possibility of circumstances that may alter this, which makes me wonder about Brewha’s claim. That said, I’m trying to think of a reason for the claim. Would there be an advantage for Scum to claim to have a Town switch?

Good point - but I’m assuming that this means that Batman has to pick someone to kill every night. He doesn’t get to choose not to.

Whether his kill goes through is likely dependent on the switches.

FWIW, I did nothing with my switch N1.

[Chronos]

I’m not certain that brewha’s revelation necessarily makes him Town, but I am certain that it’s ballsy. I like that. And I think that, one way or the other, him saying that is going to end up helping Town. If he’s telling the truth, it’s already given us some information on the switches, and will probably give more as time goes on. For instance, if he dies, we’ll (maybe) find out what happens to switches held by dead players. It also, assuming that both Batman switches are held by Town, gives us the opportunity to coordinate their use to turn off the Vig, if we choose: We can say things like “brewha should flip his switch and the other switcher should not”, or the like, when we couldn’t before say “Switcher one should flip his switch and switcher two should not”, because they wouldn’t know which of them was one or two. It also possibly paints a target on brewha, even though he’s a claimed vanilla Townie, which is probably good (and even better, of course, if he’s actually lying).

Just brainstorming, here: What if we plan the following for toNight, that brewha flips his switch, the other switcher does not, and Batman targets brewha? If brewha is lying about holding the switch, and the real switch-holders don’t turn off Batman, then we have a dead liar, which is good. If brewha is telling the full truth, and the other switcher is also Town, then nobody gets hurt, and we have a reason to believe brewha (and also whoever eventually claims to be the other switcher).

The two failure cases I can think of are, first, if brewha is Scum and one of his team (him or another; it matters little which) really does have the switch, in which case we might become inclined to incorrectly trust him, or second, if brewha is telling the truth, and really is a Townie with a Batman switch, but the other switch-holder is Scum, cancels out his switch, and lets him die. I don’t think that either of these failure cases is actually all that bad: In the first, brewha’s team would be taking the chance that the other switch is held by the other Scum team, who is quite happy about the Vigilante successfully killing as long as it’s targeted at anyone but them, and who could thus foil the plan. In the second, we’d learn that the other Batman switcher was held by someone untrustworthy, which would tell us that the switches are not distributed in a symmetric manner.

We might well lose the services of the Vigilante for a night in this plan, but that’s OK, because a mandatory vig is probably a net liability to Town early in the game: An optional Vig at this point should probably be choosing not to kill anyway.

[Mahaloth]

**
DAY TWO VOTE COUNT
If the vote count is wrong, it’s because we hate you and want you to check it yourself. Uh, there are no powers affecting vote count, so take a look at your vote for accuracy.

Toejam(3) - raventhief(31), Idle Thoughts(32), SunnyDaze(34)

Idlethoughts(1) - Angelofthenorth(44),

BillMC(2) - Drainbead(132), Texcat(179)

Sario(1) - ProfessorPepperwinkle(46)

Angelofthenorth(2)- Zeriel(60), Boozahol(80)

Sachertorte(1) - Meeko(203),

Texcat(1) - Plumpudding(68)

Thingfish(1) - Pleonast(121),

Chronos(1), Nanook(151),

Meeko(1) - Johnnybravo(169),

Toejam is the leader and would be lynched if nothing changed. No second lynch has been reached at this point. 17 votes are required for the second lynch.

---

:find the errors!:

**

[Inner_Stickler]

@brewha

I don’t have a clue what you mean by this.

It’s a joke about WIFOM.

[Boozahol_Squid_P.I]

@Meeko

Has there ever been an instance where Town has called themselves team? How can this happen, given the fundamental and immutable set-up of Mafia? I’d wager to say town not knowing they are a team, is THE defining attribute of Mafia. “Given” roles such as a cop and a doctor would even come after that.

I’m saying I can’t conceive how it would be natural to even embrace the thought of “team” if you are town. Sure, you could, I guess, have a “team” of Masons of any stripe, but again, that comes from knowing the complete set, if you will. If we don’t know all that (who that) we are, we can never call us a team.

I believe that a group of individuals working towards a common goal in the same environment are essentially a team, even if they can’t coordinate in private. This seems to be an attempt to stir up yet another argument about nothing.

I’ve seen this before. I’m not going to help you not sell your house, Squidward.

I’m selling what to the whom with the why? Dude, I am finding it very difficult to follow the thread of your arguments. Can you tone down the weird for weird’s sake a bit?

I still am unsure about the wisdom of trying to force through a second lynch, but at this point, I’m leaning towards Meeko as a second place vote.