Omnibus post again. Sorry I can’t participate more frequently, but I want to make the contributions I do make useful.
I’m reading through Day and Night One afresh, with the knowledge of the alignment of the dead. If my notes are correct:
Town: Lakai Normal Phase septimus Suburban Plankton colby11
Gah, this still pings me badly. There is no threshold above which being helpful to Town is too much. Calling out players for being helpful to Town is by definition anti-Town. I’m having trouble seeing any Towny motivation for this.
I missed something when I first read this, probably because I was distracted by the aggressiveness. There seems to be some underlying “perfect” information that only Scum would have.
First, what is meant by “this particular strategy”? I don’t see what it’s referring to. Second, the “scum advising your teammates on how to play and/or hinting to them that you are that seventh guy who didn’t show up to chat”. While Scum roles do not include teammate information, we have no indication whether or not their secret boards include teammate information. But Thing Fish does know that.
On re-read, this post really bothers me. It’s too defensive and misrepresents what bufftabby said.
I apparently missed this before. Taunting another player for calling them out for anti-Town behavior. Votes, and reaction to votes, is the best info we have in the early game. Why be so aghast for being called out for not engaging?
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This is taking to long… Going to have skip ahead to Night 1. I’ll try to finish reading Day 1 later.
Yes. All I have to offer is my analyses, so I’m going to make them as clear as possible. Plus, I find having an explicit list prevents me from getting tunnel vision. I think too many players find someone to vote for and park it there. That’s lazy and does little to help us. If it makes you feel better, I’ll not color them blue.
I hate meta-arguments, but this exact one has been bothering me.
I appreciate jsgoddess doing so. They were reiterating their suspicions from the previous Day. Calling out one’s own mistakes is not anti-Town.
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My votes, in no order except most suspicious first: unvote vote Thing Fish for knowledge about secret Scum boards in D1.253. vote Scathach for scolding a player for being too helpful to Town in D1.35. vote Johnny Bravo for being too defensive and misrepresenting another’s case in D1.265. vote Plumpudding for refusing to vote when called on it in D1.401.
What players will potentially be subjected to moderator action at the end of Day 2 due to lack of participation?
I see no good reason to lynch anyone on that list. On the other hand, I do see good reason to lynch anyone who’s participating little and not on it. (Yeah, I’m probably subject to that; so be it.)
vote Idle Thoughts for participating just enough to avoid the mod-hammer but otherwise contributing almost nothing for us to work with.
That’s kind of a bullshit, end-around FOS there, Stickler. What, if it turns out Angel’s scum, now you’re setting up a case to accuse someone who’s been pointing out her scumminess? Seems like a great way to discourage spirited conversation.
I’m still catching up, but I’ll comment on things as they occur to me.
The Chronos Town-claim thing:
I view the exercise as pointless but there are a few nuggets that might prove useful. First, a side story – A long time ago there was a game where due to some moderator error, the game needed to be restarted. As a result some players saw scum role PM’s from the first try, but may not have been scum in the second try. I recall asking two of those players for PM information. One complied; the other refused. In comparing the two, I found the compliant player to be too accommodating and the non-compliant player to be carefree about not supplying information and suspicious of me for asking. The two behaviors were very different and illustrated the strong desire for scum to LOOK like Town. The compliant player (NAF I believe) was scum. The non-compliant player was Town.
Anyway, I think those that outright and vocally resisted are more likely to be Town. My reasoning is that scum are not going to want to resist and stating townness is remarkably easy. Townies, however, are more motivated to be suspicious of Chronos and don’t give a fuck about ‘looking scummy.’ Off the top of my head that is sinjin, Suburban(deceased), Normal Phase(deceased), and BillMc. I’ll have to re-read to get all the names.
A few thoughts (and I see we’re back to being busy beavers on the thread count):
Idle came in at one point and stated that he would sub out if he couldn’t participate more, so I’m not ready to lynch him based on Day 1 being typical or not.
If the wolves killed Colby and Batman vigged Burby, does that change anything in our analysis? I’m basing my thoughts solely on the descriptions of the death, which may or may not be valid. Burby was beaten to death, which seems like a Batman way to go. Colby’s death was quite a bit more, if you’ll pardon the description, visceral. This seems wolfy.
Death description here. Spoilered for length.
I could see the wolves acting on the assumption that Colby might be town, and taking him out.
I don’t know what triggered Batman, if I’m right. I accused SP of being scum, in post 920 of the Day 1 thread, but my logic no longer held by that Night. I need to go back and look through the thread to see if there were other accusations or FOS against SP that might have triggered a vig kill.
If I’m right that scum killed Colby, then looking at the vote shifts might still tell us something.
At this point, other players might get my vote over ToeJam but that’s simply because they’re actually participating and therefore saying things that get my Spidey senses tingling. It seems unfair to penalize participation unless I see something completely egregious. ToeJam has said nothing. I’m going to have to weigh that against everything else. For now, my vote will stay where it is. The Day is young.
Some posters have had some success scumhunting by finding posters who are generically ‘helpful’, posting vote counts, answering questions about standard practices, lingo and roles and so on so they develop a townie sheen over a scummy interior.
It does, thank you.
What is spirited to you looks rather aggressive to me. You and Angel kicked up a lot of dust in the D1 thread and looked to be starting a redux here.
Pleonast, while I’m not saying Thing Fish couldn’t be scum, I’ll admit that early in Day 1, I too made the assumption that the other factions have boards to discuss strategy. I don’t recall if anyone specifically called me out on it, though. I realized afterwards that the rules do not specifically state that to be the case. But it seemed like a natural assumption to make given my experience that every other game I’ve played in allows scum to participate off-site and I can’t fault others for leaping to the same conclusion. If your experience has been different, I can understand your suspicion.
People need to reread the rules more often when they plan to call people out for PIS. From the Godfather role, which was the first place I could find it.
“As the leader of the Mafia team, you may meet with your troops at a location to be provided under separate cover to discuss strategy by Day or by Night. Each Day, your team must select a target for its Day kill and post it in red at your private board; if your team is unable to reach consensus on a kill, yours is the final word on the matter.”
Knowing the scum have a place to chat isn’t PIS, it’s reading the rules provided to us.
I don’t think we should rely on color to tell us any definitive information on who killed who. It makes more sense to me that the wolves would have left Colby alone since he had significant suspicion and had a high chance of being lynched versus them wasting a kill on him. It also makes more sense to me that the vig would take him out being that he was high on the list of scum possibilities.
These two quotes are from D1, in response to the nascent bandwagon on Colby11. I’ve long been a proponent of the idea that “Scum slips” of the nature we saw D1 are rarely actually done by Scum at all, and it’s more likely that those who actually point out the “slip” are Scum, especially once the person who made the slip comes up Town.
Since this “slip” occurred very early in D1, it gives us an interesting opportunity to see both an early bandwagon, and the long-developing reactions to it. I have a couple of hours to devote to walls of words, and since Plumpudding has already so kindly done one on TexCat (the first to point out the “slip” and vote for it), I’ll do it on the two I also found suspicious—the ones who saw it early, commented on it, but didn’t vote. In retrospect, it’s even more suspicious than I found it yesterDay, because now we know that Colby11 was Town. So here’s some walls on Total Lost and BillMC. Total Lost
14 – Asking NP what post was edited.
86 – Editing is scummy. Also, N0 was part of the game and asking about it is fair game.
87 – a list of quoted posts from N0 she found important
88 – ToeJam more scummy than Boozahol Squid for similar behavior, thinks those voting/FOSing the latter should comment on the former.
89 – Questioning snfaulkner on a vote for Angelofthenorth when they’d been FOSing Squid, asking Suburban Plankton why he wanted to make a random vote.
95 – Above quoted call-out of Colby11
109 – Didn’t know ToeJam = Roosh
111—Asks septimus, who unvoted Pleonast to vote for Colby11, whether he still thinks Pleo looks scummy
112—Asks Normal Phase to clarify her opinion on the idea that scum slips usually aren’t, reiterates that she’s not sure what to think of Colby11 yet, but wants to know what others think of the phrasing he used.
117 – Interaction with me, taking a closer look at the Colby11 wagon, disagreeing that 3 votes and 2 FOSes in 117 posts is a “bandwagon” yet. Says a slip vote is stronger than a policy vote or lynch the lurker, but still not voting because she’s waiting for Colby11’s response.
119—Thanks septimus for answering question she posed in 111.
138 – Says that ToeJam and Boozy pinged her but was still interested in the fact that their similar actions resulted in different reactions from those who were pinged by only one. Says that Normal Phase and Guiri gave good answers to that, so far.
150 – Uses a dotchan post in Super Mario Mafia (saying “did my kill go through?”) as an example of a successful Scum slip that resulted in Scum being lynched. Says slips might indicate Scum.
224—Clarifies that her use of the word “actions” in a previous post didn’t mean actual in-game actions.
228—Still talking about the difference between the reactions to ToeJam and Boozy.
230 – With 2 scum teams, whether Colby11 is Town or Scum, there is most likely Scum voting for him now. If he flips Town, both Scum teams probably have members on his wagon, if Scum, most likely it’s just members of the “other” scum team. But pretty sure there’s scum voting for him by now.
263 – Asks if I’m referring to her and BillMC when I talk about the two players who FOSed Colby11 without voting for him.
268 – Asks low-post-count voters Plumpudding and DiggitCamara (the latter of whom was voting for Colby at the time, not sure about PP at this point in my writing) to comment on other things that are going on in the game.
273—Votes septimus, essentially getting that wagon off the ground. Reasoning is that he unvoted Colby and said it’s anti-town to bandwagon early on Day 1 for flimsy reasons, but also had said that the slip was the biggest ping (while still being weak). I’m having a hard time parsing this post. At the end she accuses septimus of snuggling Angelofthenorth and Normal Phase, and doesn’t like it.
277 – Joke post.
280 – Was asked if she’d ever played with septimus before, isn’t sure, asks why.
343 – Asks Colby11 directly why he used the “other team” phrasing. Wonders if it’s that English is her second language.
489 – Thanks Normal Phase for saying that Colby’s phrasing is fairly common. Second half is a joke post.
490—Says she spends 1-2 hours reading and .5-1 hour posting in the game per day. Asks septimus if he’s familiar with the NAF theory of the 3rd vote on a townie wagon. In response to septimus saying that he would vote for the one with the fewest votes if there were two lynch candidates about whom he felt equally, she asks that anyone doing this clearly say they’re doing it, to make sure we clear up any confusion. Calls septimus out on soft-claiming powers.
491—asks septimus if he thinks a “Scum would never do that” argument has merit.
492—Likes a post from Suburban Plankton about voting policy (vote for who you think is scum because unvotes are cheap, don’t base your vote on who other players are voting for this early in the game or Day)
493—Gets into an exchange with Angelofthenorth about not reading the rules. Says that when called on it, she said it’s so anti-Town that Scum would never do it. Unvotes septimus and votes Angel.
494—(Six game posts in a row—this is getting painful!) Agrees with Lightfoot that Angelofthenorth had no easily-understandable reason for not reading the rules and then posting that she hadn’t.
496—Says that an addendum to NAF’s theory is that it only works if the player with the third vote isn’t familiar with the theory that the third voter on a Townie wagon is Scum.
504—Prods non-voters into voting.
535 –Responds to Angelofthenorth saying that her usual play style is not this careless.
537—Vote for Angel is not for being anti-town or not reading the rules, it’s for saying that what she did was anti-Town but using the “Scum wouldn’t do that” defense, trying to make it look like she was more likely to be Town for something that was probably a null tell.
543—Says that she realizes Angel didn’t OMGUS her, and Angel was instead complaining about the other two votes on her, rather than TL’s. (Sorry, was having a hard time phrasing this)
548 – More back and forth with Angel, about whether or not changes in playstyle can be a tell in a game of this size, when the size of the game could easily be what is affecting the changes in playstyle.
555—Says the names she’s used on other boards.
570 – Repeats her reasoning for her vote on Angel, makes a joke.
591 – Asks septimus again if he was soft-claiming, because he didn’t answer.
592 – Posts the rules for Angel.
595 – Doesn’t like using past behavior or playstyle as a guide for determining whether or not a person is Scum in this game, especially when players are doing it on behalf of other players, not themselves. Wonders if it’s a form of snuggling, questions validity of that sort of data.
619—Previous rant about using previous games as a metric for current game is not part of her reasoning for voting Angel.
652—Says that she asked septimus about the soft claim because she saw it and didn’t want a Townie to waste a power on him. Was not concerned whether or not Scum had seen it too. Not a fan of soft claims.
653 – Apologizes for typos
654 – NETA to fix typo and add clarity to 652.
666—Doesn’t want septimus to claim, wants him to say if he meant to soft claim or not.
667—In response to Plumpudding misremembering which player did a thing in a previous game, reiterates that she hates using that sort of meta-info in the current game.
671—Still pushing septimus on the soft claim issue. Asks him if he’s not familiar with the terminology.
672—self-labeled fluff post. Gets her first vote, from Raventhief, in 679
684—Says she’s not fishing by asking whether or not septimus is soft claiming.
685—Fluff
687—Dislikes the raventhief vote on her because she says she’s not trying to force a claim from septimus, is instead just asking if he meant to soft claim or not. septimus claims in 690
692—Again says she didn’t ask septimus to confirm a claim, just asking if he meant to soft claim or if it was an accident. Says he could have answered no.
695—In response to Plumpudding saying she was trying to get information out of septimus, says “This game really changed while I was away.”
699—Asks Plumpudding whether he’s sure that septimus was claiming, and why that is.
702—Says that asking whether or not something was meant for a soft claim is not more concrete than the soft claim itself. Trying to make a claim more concrete would have been asking for details, which she was not.
704—We still don’t know that it was intended to be a soft claim, not sure why everyone is assuming it was. Gets her second vote, from jsgoddess, in 716
815 – Apologizes for misgendering NP
818—Finally interacts again with septimus. Still wants to know if it was intended as a soft claim or if she was misreading it. Says that it might not mean anything to the game but means something to her (Not sure what this means, TL, can you clarify?). Says she would not have unvoted him if he’d claimed to be a Town power role but hadn’t claimed which one. Mentions a NAF theory that Town Power roles play it safe to try to stay off Scum radar and instead generally fall under risk of lynch for looking scummy. Reiterates that she never asked for a full claim from septimus.
833 – Wanted to know whether it was intended to be a soft claim so she could learn from it. “But never mind. It can wait until after the game.” (Again, not sure what you meant by the quoted part here, TL, can you clarify?) unvoted by Raventhief in 912 unvoted by jsgoddess in 1129
1333 (First post of N1) Says that she spent the weekend away from the game, will reread.
Okay, I’m back. That took a lot longer than I thought it would. Worried the post is too long. Going to try to get the wall done on Bill, then will comment. I only have 25 minutes left on my computer, then I’m back to phone posting until tomorrow, and these get hard on the phone.
105 – The post calling out Colby that I quoted in my earlier post.
217 – Fluff post about language differences.
218 – Patsy could essentially make a 4 person masonry into 5 (Question for Bill–how, exactly? The Patsy wouldn’t know who the masons are.) Patsy claiming could be a lightning rod for all sorts of power roles.
219 – Refers to Colby trying to “meh” out of being suspected as Scum in Dante’s game (Question for Bill–was he Scum in that game? And if so, what was the behavior he was getting heat for?)
1000 – Apologizes for hectic stuff going on IRL. Again brings up Colby’s behavior in Dante’s game. Doesn’t see the cases on ToeJam or Angel. Has an issue with the Chronos “I’m Town, not 3rd party” attempt at a mass claim. Says it’s pretty much pointless without a lie detector role. Says it seems like a 3rd party trying to achieve something for his win condition.
1152 – Says gut instinct on Colby is Scum. Between Lakai Mk. 1 and ToeJam, likes the Hooker case on ToeJam in 568. Votes ToeJam. Says he won’t be back online due to travel before EOD.
And that’s it. Since I have five minutes to actually analyze this, seeing as there’s very little…
The last two posts kind of seal the deal for me. Here we have a low-level poster, fairly fluffy but with occasional analysis, who somehow manages to be self-contradictory in just a handful of posts. He keeps bringing up how Colby acted in Dante’s game (but not what it actually meant, for those of us who didn’t play). He doesn’t vote for Colby, though, even though he FOSes him early, and then in his last post says his gut instinct is Scum. In post 1000 he says he doesn’t see the case on ToeJam or Angel, and then votes ToeJam in 1152 based on logic in a post that was made well before his post 1000, when he said he didn’t see a case on ToeJam. And all this despite saying that he thought someone else who he never actually voted for was Scum.
Ahhhh. I misunderstood you. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, my vote on Normal was a policy vote for the flagrant editing. It wasn’t there very long, and I never intended for it to be my final vote.
No, I addressed what I thought Colby was doing that was scummy in this game.
Yes, Toejam was second highest and by a fair few more votes than Colby. I wasn’t really intending to suggest it as a means to decipher who made the most recent kills, but to hear others thoughts on the general strategy. Perhaps it’s not a worthwhile avenue to go down since we do have the multilynch so we can answer these dilemmas ourselves.
I’m fine with a ToeJam Lynch (which shouldn’t be surprising since I was voting for ToeJam yesterday). I think finding out ToeJam’s alignment is pretty much needed at this point to put Day 1 into proper perspective.
But we also have the second Lynch, so I will need to find out who else I find suspicious. I suggest those that voted ToeJam already do the same.
Should we discuss whether we think the multilynch makes sense given the state of the game as it stands? I don’t feel good about it, though I recognize that it’s very context specific as to whether it makes sense. I know I’m repeating myself, but it feels like something that could get away from us really quickly, though that’s less of a concern when we have 2 than we we have 3 with it’s very low thresholds.
Well, the third lynch won’t fire if the second lynch doesn’t meet its bar and I’ve already stated that I’m beginning to think that won’t happen very much if at all. Town tends to be very skittish about that sort of thing.
Huh. That’s interesting. I thought it was pretty much a given that we need to utilize the second Lynch.
I realize that we wouldn’t necessarily reach the vote totals needed naturally. But I’m thinking that we would have the normal vote and a dummy vote for the second Lynch. Then on Saturday or Sunday we move votes around to make the second Lynch happen. Perhaps I’m expecting too much.