Mafia Reunion - Day Three

[HookerChemical]

Thing Fish and Pleonast: Who knew what scum knew and when did they know it.
Dammit, Thing Fish. Posting vote counts makes it hard to search your useful posts for “Pleonast.” Here’s a recap with only posts related to the Thing Fish and Pleonast issue, ordered chronologically. I include posts by non TF or Pleo players as I catch them, but I’m only searching TF and Pleo. Search started with D1.

[spoiler]Pleonast N0.234 - Pleonast points out that the scum messages do not inform them of scum teammates, giving rise to the possibility of ignorant scum. Pleonast seems to think is a potential strength for scum. [I strongly disagree. Town has the advantage of numbers. Scum has the advantage of information. If scum throws away their advantage by not reading it, they are at a disadvantage. It poses a different challenge for town, possibly, but it’s not good scum play.]
Pleo N0.243 - Reiterates his believe that uninformed scum pose a greater challenge.
Thing Fish D1.192 - TF quotes Pleonast’s posts about scum not being informed of who their teammates are Quoted above) and questions why Pleonast would immediately start talking about what Pleonast thinks is the best strategy for scum.
Pleo D1.241 - Agrees that players attempting to secretly communicate via post editing is nearly cheating. [I bring up several problems with this theoretical communication in a D1 post. - HookerChemical]
Discussion of why town should not discuss town power roles but should discuss scum power roles.
Other issues related to other posters and roles.
Responds to D1.192 with more discussion of not discussing town roles, but Pleo likes the way TF brought up the Outrider and Hitman roles. He references this in several of his posts.
TF D1.253 - Says Pleo’s rebuttal doesn’t respond to issue at all. Quotes Pleo’s D1.241 post. Quoted in full, edits for formatting and clarity:

@Thing_Fish

Link to my original post.

@Pleonast

Because I’m concerned about what Scum might do. Each Scum team is figuring out how to counter town roles on their own boards. Why should we help them by discussing what we might do?

Instead, let’s talk about whattheymight do, so that each town role can better decide for themself (without possibly accidently revealing their tactics here) what to do about it.

(An aside: have so many of us forgotten how scum play the game?)

The above reply to me is snipped from a larger Pleonast post.

That doesn’t address the issue at all. It’s one thing to think of a possible Scum strategy and come up with ways to counter it (which might very well involve advising Town power roles on how they should play). But if you think of a good Scum strategy which you* can’t* identify a way to counter, why would you bring that up? It’s just doing the scum’s work for them.

Ordinarily, I would just see this as poor play without scum motivation; if you were really scum wanting to discuss strategy with your teammates, you could just do it on the scum board. But in the case of this particular strategy, which involves not reading the scum board, there is obvious scum motivation. It reads to me like you could be scum advising your teammates on how to play and/or hinting to them that you are that seventh guy who didn’t show up to chat.

TF D1.794 - Accuses Pleonast of missing the point of TF’s Post 192 during Pleo’s rebuttal in 241.
TF D1.804 - Invites others to Pleonast wagon. Comments on other players.
Pleo D1.841 - Says he did address TF’s D1.192 post and won’t waste additional bandwidth on the issue.
TF D1.1145 - Still thinks Pleonast is scummiest. Other comments on other players.
Pleo D2.121 - Here’s where Pleo opens fire on Thing Fish in an omnibus post. Unrelated parts have been removed.

@Pleonast

I missed something when I first read this, probably because I was distracted by the aggressiveness. There seems to be some underlying “perfect” information that only Scum would have.

First, what is meant by “this particular strategy”? I don’t see what it’s referring to. Second, the “scum advising your teammates on how to play and/or hinting to them that you are that seventh guy who didn’t show up to chat”. While Scum roles do not include teammate information, we have no indication whether or not their secret boards include teammate information. But Thing Fish does know that.

[unrelated content removed]

My votes, in no order except most suspicious first:
unvote[color]
[color=blue]vote Thing Fish[color] for knowledge about secret Scum boards in D1.253.
vote Scathach for scolding a player for being too helpful to Town in D1.35.
vote Johnny Bravo for being too defensive and misrepresenting another’s case in D1.265.
vote Plumpudding for refusing to vote when called on it in D1.401.

[color=green]What players will potentially be subjected to moderator action at the end of Day 2 due to lack of participation?

I see no good reason to lynch anyone on that list. On the other hand, I do see good reason to lynch anyone who’s participating little and not on it. (Yeah, I’m probably subject to that; so be it.)

vote Idle Thoughts for participating just enough to avoid the mod-hammer but otherwise contributing almost nothing for us to work with.

Ender24 D2.126 - Responds to Pleo D2.121. Ender says he made the same assumption that other factions have boards to discuss strategy, notes nobody called out Ender for that assumption.
Pleo D2.149 - States we do know scum have boards, says we do not know what information is there and that TF implicitly stated that the scum board does not state who is on that team.Chronis D2.182 - Accuses Pleo of having the PIS that Pleo is accusing TF of having.
Pleo D2.222 - Responds to Chronos D2.182 and states that theres’ no infomration in saying that someone who does not read a secret boards gains no information from it but that TF implicitly stated that a player who has read the secret board does know who their scum team is. I will quote it below because it is the clearest explanation of what Pleo’s accusation is.

@Pleonast

There’s no information in saying that someone who does not read a secret board gains no information from it. That’s basic deduction: a player cannot know what’s on a secret board they haven’t read. And that deduction is completely independent of what’s on the board. Whether or not there’s information on the secret board, the player not reading it gains no information.

Thing Fish has implicitly stated something else: that a player who has read the secret board does not know a particular piece of information. How can anyone who has no knowledge of the secret board know this? The information gained from reading a secret board is extremely dependent on what’s on that board. The only possible conclusion is that Thing Fish has knowledge of what’s on that board.

This is a clear-cut case of perfect information. It’s probably clear-cut enough that we should leave it to the Vigilante to take care of, since we’ll gain little information from lynching a self-revealed scum. But it’s good for an early vote in the Day.

TF D2.284 - TF restates his case on Pleonast from previous posts. Says that Pleo sounds like he is trying to signal scum teammates to adopt his strategy of not reading the boards or breadcrumb to them that he is the “missing” teammate.
HookerChemical D2.295 - HC states he thinks TF’s asumptions are pretty reasonable and agrees that the breadcrumb theory makes sense. Votes Pleonast. [This is a pretty abbreviated case, and I really wish HookerChemical would look into the whole history of the PIS accusations. Get on that, Hooker.]
TF D2.297 - TF votes Pleonast, presumably in response to HookerChemical.
TF D2.996 - TF unvotes Pleonast, moves to ToeJam, but goofs the tags.
TF D2.999 and D2.1000 - An amusing series of fixes to the vote tags that amuses me more than it should.
Pleo D3.141 - Pleo casts his initial D3 vote for Thing Fish.
Lightfoot D3.152 - Lightfoot responds to Pleo’s D3.141 post. She hass issues throughout Pleo’s post unrelated to the TF issue. When he gets to the TF issue, she links TF D1.253 and says Pleo “started it.”
Pleo D3.169 - Responds to Lightfoot’s D3.141 post.

@Pleonast

Thing Fish said “It reads to me like you could be scum advising your teammates on how to play and/or hinting to them that you are that seventh guy who didn’t show up to chat”. That implicitly states that Scum do not learn the identity of all their teammates on their secret board. Otherwise, why would a Scum player need to hint they were the seventh guy who didn’t show up to chat?

Only a player who has read a secret board would know it doesn’t reveal all their teammates. It’s not stated anywhere in the rules. Thus, Thing Fish has revealed they’ve read a Scum secret board, and so must be Scum. This is a slam-dunk case of perfect information slippage.

Of course I started the conversation! That’s the whole point of discussing Scum–so that they inadvertently make mistakes when discussing themselves.

I’m not sure why you’re trying to downplay evidence from an earlier Day.

LightFoot D3.174 - To Pleo, quoting the above:

@LightFoot

He was talking about what You said.YOU

[Quoted unnecessarily because the post amuses me.]

TF D3.184 - Quoted below, because it’s relevant, if less amusing than Lightfoot.

@Thing_Fish

OK, Pleo, I think I may actually see what you mean. You are saying that I assumed that, when one logs onto the scum board, one doesn’t see a list of all the other scum; therefore, if a scum didn’t post any comments, the other scum would have no way of knowing who he/she was. And you are thinking that this constitutes PIS?

Well, I did assume that. I’ve never been on a scum board in an SDMB game, but that is how the ones on giraffe work.

So all of your scum leans are from early Day One, though you’re commenting on developments since. You’re happy to spend another Day with a one-off vote. I still think you are scummy.

Pleo D3.187 - Questions why TF is so confident that he won’t draw other votes in TF’s D3.184.
TF D3.189 - TF states his confidence based on yesterDay and confidence that nobody will buy Pleo’s case.
Pleo D3.307 - Pleonast characterizes Thing Fish’s D3.189 response as “how scum thing: the important thing about a vote is how many players follow it.”[/spoiler]

That’s it. This is type of summary is going to be more nightmarish as the game goes on, but I do get a kick of rereading some of the responses knowing how things turn out. Things like not wasting bandwidth then spending two Days tilting at windmills amuse me.

I’m still where I was when I voted Pleonast. I think his accusation that TF has PIS are extremely weak. I guess they’re technically true, but TF’s assumption that scum are not welcomed to their board with a list of their teammates is consistent with my recent games on Giraffe and Straight Dope.

The assumption is not even necessary to make. A scum player wanting to play a solo scum game would simply never go to the scum board. The idea that scum would go to the board and not find out who their teammates are is bizarre.

Finally, the assumption that scum know who scum are is implicit in accusations of scum bandwagoning, bussing, or similar accusations of scum collusions. It’s an assumption built into most scum hunting.

Pleo’s accusation makes no sense. It’s taking something that is technically true (Thing Fish assumed that reading the scum board would name the other scum), but it’s bizarre to think that scum wouldn’t find out the scum from their board.

I may be to late in doing this to make the lynch to happen today. I think today is already decided. I think there’s a decent chance Idle flips scum. Even if he isn’t scum, I understand why it has to happen.

unvote all
vote Pleonast