I would really like to know the answer to this as well. What benefit is there to Town from secrecy?
I don’t know. It is an awfully risky role to claim especially so early… granted sach is a skilled player, and sowing confusion could have value, but … I’m not sure that makes up for the value of getting offed so early in the game (which is what certainly will happen soon enough).
While I’m not confident to hinge a lynch on sach’s alignment post (not that we could just yet), I just tend to think that a fake role claim as the coroner wouldn’t make sense.
The only thing I could see sach being, other than the Coroner, is a pro-town role trying to draw the first night’s kills or something, but I would imagine the real Coroner would prove of limited value without outing themselves relatively soon.
In any case I imagine we’ll find out soon enough. I have a feeling sach has a method to his madness, so I’m fine giving him immunity for the time being.
Unfortunately, this is simply wrong. Pleonast has explicitly stated that there could be multiples of any given role - any role - in the game. Thus just because we had a claimed Vig does not mean that a player with the Vig role can assume that the claimant was not a Vig.
Frankly Vig is a very easy roleclaim. All the claimant has to do is sit on his hands “waiting to be sure” for two or three days. The only way to out the fake becomes Witch or Seer investigation. Especially if he’s a Cabalist who doesn’t go out killing. Another Vig can’t kill with impunity until the fake is exposed - because a real Vig might well behave like that.
I’m well aware of what Pleonast has said, and I stand by my statement that I find it quite unlikely that there are more than one Vig in this game.
Anyway, the point is moot, because OAOW is dead.
That is your belief, and you may well be right. But it’s a bad idea at this stage of a Mafia game to completely discount other possibilities. People who want to narrow possibilities early always twinge my scumdar, so you’ve just picked up a pointer.
And what happens if there is a vig in the game who isn’t OAOW? And we call him (or, as it may be, her) to the noose? We have no guarantees that it can’t happen again.
Then we deal with it then. Why does everybody insist on coming up with strategies to deal with every possible scenario? We can’t possibly do that. We have to play this by ear.
Actually the point is not yet moot.
- We do not know if there is a Vigilante in the game.
- We have yet to determine if OAOW is the vigilante or not and cannot be certain until **Pleonast ** has stated it.
- The issue I am concerned about is now over your actions shortly before the end of day. They could be interpreted as someone trying to save the person being lynched. If OAOW does turn out to be Cabal, it might be interpreted as you trying to save a fellow Cabalist for at least one more night.
Comment?
The point under contention is my strategy is dealing with OAOW’s role claim. As he is now dead, the point is moot.
If I were a Cabalist, I wouldn’t trade my own life to postpone the lynch of a fellow Cabalist. I’d have to be an idiot to put my neck on the line like that.
The problem I have is that you seem to be locking yourself into a particular assumption about the setup. I know from last game how bad that could be.
Speaking about last game, I’m forgetting one of my own lessons.
When I roleclaimed in M5, I kept back information about my investigations in order to avoid giving the Cult a hand. I’m quite sure that’s all Sachertorte is doing. I should have, but did not, consider the possibility that Sach had not passed everything he knew to us.
:smack:
Sorry Sach. My initial reaction to your announcement of alignment was wrong.
- Absolutely right
- Absolutely right. I’d add that we don’t know if sachertorte’s claim is right, just yet. We will know next dawn, though.
- I don’t think that’s really likely. It might be, though, I’ll have to look at the last couple of posts last Day. The thing I’ll be looking for is a “soft defense” by someone at the end of the Day, when OAOW was about to be lynched.
Why? We will know amrussell’s alignment at the end of this Day. We won’t know his Role until the next Day ends. If he announces his role, we have solid confirmation of sachertorte’s knowledge and he would be a confirmed townie from now on.
Of course, if his other two alignment confirmations are on the money, it’s likely he’s confirmed anyway. Still: why shouldn’t he give us amrussell’s role? Or, for that matter, why shouldn’t he give us, for the supposed Werewolf’s role (if it wasn’t one of the run of the mill Werevolves?)
Back in M5 I opted to hide the true role of two of the players. With one, it was to avoid giving the Cult extra info. My main concern was that I was convinced the Cult hadn’t done something so silly as to recruit with an unknown number of players immune in their own person to recruitment, and I didn’t want to tell them that Sachertorte was one.
Suppose that Sachertorte is now in a similar position - namely that amr told the truth about his alignment but not about his role. Suppose that he had an extremely valuable role but didn’t want to reveal it in order to avoid giving information to one of the killing scum groups that let them play around his power? Sachertorte could be suppressing the rolename because, knowing what amr was, he doesn’t want to give the Wolves and/or Undead that info either, for as long as possible.
I didn’t think of that until too late.
That possibility has been brought up already. My reaction to that? See post 588.
If you can explain that away, then I’ll be happy to consider it.
No Mason would know whether the claim was true or false on Day 1, because they won’t be informed of the results of the test until the end of the Day. Thus any refutation of a Mason claim cannot occur until Day 2 or even Day 3, if the Masons had burned their powers on testing other people before the claim occurred.
That’s the same with all Day powers, by the way - the results are held until the end of the Day, and not learned immediately. See post [post=9029935]236[/post].
:smack:
Okay, I feel stupid now.
I admit I hadn’t considered the possible downside of **sachertorte **revealing amrussel’s Role in addition to his Side. There is an argument there for holding that info back, although, in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to have 3 confirmed corpses and 1 confimed Townie. Nevertheless, I can respect that opinion if that’s how **sach **wants to play it.
HOWEVER, if **sachertorte **does NOT reveal anyone’s Role, but only reveals Sides, I will not consider him 100% confirmed, even if he gets all the sides right. Maybe after several Days of getting all the Sides right, I will believe him. But even though the odds are against it, if he is lying scum, he could get lucky.
Final point: even with all of the above, as far as I can tell, there is NO reason not to reveal the Role of Fretful Porcupine. It would be very beneficial to know, for example, if we nailed the Omega Wolf as opposed to just a Wolf. Can anyone tell me why we should not get that info? Cough it up, sach.
I think some good points were made… I think, in retrospect, it does make a lot of sense to withhold the role of Townies. Revealing town roles is much more likely to aid scum than anything in a lot of cases so I’ll withhold judgement for now.
But, also agreed, this doesn’t make sense for scum. Was our wolf one of the wolves with a special role?
Don’t be a schmuck, ** Idle **. If you reverse the “Role” and “Alignment” in th efirst sentence of my post, you’ll get exactly what i meant. I wasn’t confused, and I’m not backpedalling. Please explain to me what sort of diabolical plan you think I have that is predicated on reversing those two words once in a post.
I can’t think of a reason not to defend ** sache ** right now. If he’s not the coroner, it will come out very soon when he screws up the Role/Alignment identification. There’s no possible reason to lynch the guy until we have evidence that he’s not the coroner, because we know that evidence is shortly forthcoming. I defended him there because I didn’t want people to jump the gun on lynching a townie.
I want to say I was defending sache there, as well. And anyways, I wasn’t defending anyone there, so much as I was attacking ** Zoggie ** and **drain **'s reasoning.
Good point. I hadn’t thought of the angle of him as a Cabalist. He’d have to be lucky on Fretful, but I think that he needs to get in here toDay and give a more specific accounting of the dead players’ Roles.
NETA: I don’t know what i was thinking in my response to:
Obviously it was in defense of Diggit that I was attacking Zoggie and drain. Anyways, might point there stands. I don’t like their reasoning, and I don’t like the idea of lynching someone based solely on the idea that they’re not a mason or one ofthe minor power roles (IOW as close to Vanilla Townie as we come in this game)
I’m not sure of that. I think now that it does make sense for him to withhold Town roles, though I can’t think of a good reason for scum.
We don’t know how many wolves there are (assuming at least 3) but, if one was going to guess wolf, it would seem not to make sense… after all probability goes with Town, right (presumably, as the game would be extremely unbalanced with a larger individual scum “side” than town)? So if you’re going to try to stay off the gallows for a couple days, why wouldn’t you play the odds?
That’s not even considering that, presumably, there would be another real Coroner out there (given the importance of the role I find it unlikely it’s one that could be left out of the game entirely) that could out Sach at pretty much any time.
I am curious why Sach has been basically a nonparticipator today for the most part but I am feeling more confident about this situation the more that it’s discussed.
I do think we need to start considering who our lynch nominees should be, though, so it’s not a last minute affair.