Mafia: The Conspiracy

[Freudian_Slit]

About the Cabal thing–the mystical powers thing was in the OP. That’s where I got it from.

As for the post that got edited, I only changed it to clarify a sentence. It was something like I changed the “implication” of a plan to its “execution.” I honestly forgot about the no editing rule as I’ve never played before.

[nesta]

@HazelNutCoffee

amrussell being killed made sense no matter who it was since both scum sides would not want a confirmed Townie around anyway. I wasn’t the only one who thought Fret’s death was odd. At the time my reasoning was that Vampires would be less discriminatory about their kills than Werewolves; Vampires work alone and are interested only in piling up bodies, while Werewolves are a pack and will kill strategically. Fret’s death at the time was unexpected, so I was suggesting it was more probable that it was a Vampire kill. Notice the word “if” in my post.

Looking back through the posts around that time I can only find Rysto that even hinted at being surprised that Fretful was killed. He says (post 561):

@Rysto

amr’s death is no surprise; the scum wouldn’t want a confirmed Freemason who can validate any Freemason claim around. Fretful’s death is a mystery to me at this point; he’s not been on my radar at all.

He he doesn’t say anything about who might have killed Fretful. Yes, I think most of us were a little confused that Fretful was killed because he was rather below the radar, but in my experience scum tend to kill those that will give the least information and aren’t likely to be protected, so Fretful’s death made some sense regardless of who killed him. At the time only you proposed it was the vampire specifically that killed Fretful.

@HazelNutCoffee

Good Lord. I wasn’t the only one prematurely rejoicing. I’m just so used to taking Role/Side announcements after death for granted that it slipped my mind it was a) sachertorte, not the mod, making this announcement, and b) sachertorte had yet to be confirmed in his claims. It was an absent-minded mistake, unfortunately, and a result of unfamiliarity with the rules - I have no better defense than that.

Actually you were the only one rejoicing without taking into account that sach might not really be the coroner. This is what strikes me as odd. You say that you took it for granted that the sides sach said were correct, and that you didn’t realize that it was sach and not Pleonasat revealing the sides/roles. After reading Ploenast’s Day/Night start posts all I can think about is that I wish I knew what the sides/roles were right then. I find it hard to believe that you could mix up sach’s unconfirmed side information with a Mod reveal unless you already knew it to be correct.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@Diomedes

Well, I’m not a Freemason. I’m obviously getting my head too deep here in something which I thought I understood, but apparently have misconstrued. If Pleo has told you that the sign is part of the information a Mason can give you, then roll with it.

He hasn’t said it one way or the other. He just has said that any info the person knew upon death I’d learn. I just assume this would be the secret sign he knew, being as this is a form of info?

@sachertorte

Speaking of Idle Thoughts here’s a question:
Idle Thoughts, if I were to reveal all role information Today, would you act on that information Tonight? Or do you feel the need to wait until I’m more confirmed?

I might depending on a few things. Like who they were, how I felt about you being honest, and if I thought I had a good chance at succeeding toNight to name a few.

[HazelNutCoffee]

@nesta

He he doesn’t say anything about who might have killed Fretful. Yes, I think most of us were a little confused that Fretful was killed because he was rather below the radar, but in my experience scum tend to kill those that will give the least information and aren’t likely to be protected, so Fretful’s death made some sense regardless of who killed him. At the time only you proposed it was the vampire specifically that killed Fretful.

You are twisting my words. Regarding a possibility of a Vampire kill, I said:

Although I suppose if it was a Vampire kill that makes sense; all the Vampire wants to do is kill everyone, no? (Except the Necromancer, I suppose.)

In that same post, I listed the three kill possibilities; I then suggested Vampire as the one that seemed most probable to me. I’ve already explained why I came to that conclusion: I assumed a Vampire’s killing pattern would be more random than the Werewolves. Perhaps it was a stupid line of reasoning, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a scummy one.

Actually you were the only one rejoicing without taking into account that sach might not really be the coroner. This is what strikes me as odd. You say that you took it for granted that the sides sach said were correct, and that you didn’t realize that it was sach and not Pleonasat revealing the sides/roles. After reading Ploenast’s Day/Night start posts all I can think about is that I wish I knew what the sides/roles were right then. I find it hard to believe that you could mix up sach’s unconfirmed side information with a Mod reveal unless you already knew it to be correct.

That’s not true: Diomedes celebrated prematurely as well, in post 572. With no qualifier about sachertorte’s unconfirmed status, I might add. Are you going to accuse him of being scummy as well?

I still stand by what I said. What can I say - it’s been a busy week, and I’ve been reading/posting in this thread in snatches between teaching classes and grading papers. When I saw sach’s post, I just thought, “Hey, cool, we lynched a scum! OAOW was lying!” and posted my reaction on the spot.

BTW, I didn’t mean I mistook sach for Pleonast per se. I knew it was sachertorte’s post, of course; I just meant that my reaction was to the post itself without taking into account who actually posted it. Does that make sense? The closest analogy I can think of was in the previous Mafia game when storyteller cultivated a feud with Mtg, all the while forgetting that Mtg was not, in fact, a fellow mason. Sometimes you get caught up in the game and you make stupid mistakes.

I suppose the lesson here is that I should stop making knee-jerk reaction posts.

As for you, nesta:

See, with the first argument you made, I am willing to admit that what I said, which was actually me assuming things about scum that you personally consider incorrect, could possibly be interpreted as something an informed scum would inadverdently say. (Personally, I think it’s a reach, but I’m trying to be openminded here.) But with the second one, you left out information in making your point. :dubious: I’m not sure if you just made a mistake or did it deliberately in the hopes that no one would actually go back and comb the posts themselves. I certainly don’t appreciate accusations (not even accusations - votes!) that are based on faulty information.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Argh, what with responding to nesta I haven’t had time to look through toDay’s posts, and I really need to get some sleep tonight. I don’t know which would be worse - to vote no lynch or to not vote at all. (In the end it’s the same thing, I suppose.)

I am reluctant to vote for nesta because it looks like revenge voting, but I am still peeved about the fact he voted for me partly based on faulty information. Plus, the whole Drain Bead trainwreck - I am still rather suspicious of her sudden lynching, and **nesta ** and DiggitCamera were the last two to vote for her. So for the lack of a better idea:

vote nesta

[CatInASuit]

Just for Kat

@Pleonast

Most insidiously, a cryptic organization has infiltrated the Town: the Cabal. With only limited mystic powers, they scheme to take over the Town for their own purposes. They have a secret channel of communication in which they may consult with each other and make plans. Only the Witches can stop them, provided the Town survives assault by the evils of the Night.

@Zoggie

I’m a little confused about the Cabal. They communicate together in their own manner–like over PM? And their mystical powers…are we meant to be in the dark about that?

@Kat

I probably read this and dismissed it at the time, but in my re-read, it just struck me as trying to seem uninformed about the Cabal and…where did she get the idea that Cabal had “mystical powers” that we don’t know about? The flavor text in the OP describes them as having “limited mystic powers” but no mention of communication. Since she knew about the communication, she has to have read the complete description on google docs or the mirror board, which spells out the Cabal’s power as blocking. Perhaps it caught my attention because sach and Idle Thoughts have since announced that additional powers were revealed in their PMs.

Hmm: let me see

Mystic(al) powers…Check
Secret communication…Check
Kat missing stuff in her analysis…Check
Me being annoying and acting like Rysto…Check

What this post means to me is that Zoggie is not a member of any group in the town ie. A witch, wolf or cabal., otherwise she would know how that communication would work.

So IMO, she is either undead or one of the other townie roles. If you have a different opinion, well that’s your perogative.

Of course, it could be WIFOM, in which case she is one of those groups and I am mistaken. But until that point in #380, I didn’t see what was wrong. Any actions she carries out after that point, will change my opinion either for or against her. However, your missed a point, whether deliberate or not, that was one of of the main points of your argument.

If you want to convince me Zoggie is scum, find something different. Am I defending Zoggie, only from a flawed argument which is begin used to smudge me. Personally, I’ll keep an open mind for the moment.

Although I would be interested to know why you are defending Idle Thoughts, by smudging someone who voted for him.

[Kat]

Dammit. beats head against brick wall I thought I had something there. And I read the OP twice.

[color=red]Unvote Zoggie[/unvote]

And if you’re talking about the quote from CatInASuit, I admit, yes, I was planning on going through all his posts due to that “odd vote” comment if I’d been right about Zoggie, but nothing had jumped out at me enough to even put him on the “smudge” list. It was a last minute decision to even include it in the post. But feel perfectly free to make a list of everyone I’ve “defended” by smudging Mad, Santo, Diomedes, etc.

I have to leave for work now, and won’t be back on the board until about 5:30 PM, so I shall remain voteless toDay. That’s a non-vote, though, not a vote for no-lynch.

[Kat]

Unvote Zoggie

[Pleonast]

Just a reminder: the Day ends at 12 noon (Pacific Time) today. If you have a Day Power, you must PM your orders before then. Only votes posted on or before noon will count towards the final vote tally. I’ll post Dusk as soon as I can, but might not be until the end of the work day.

Remember, a tie vote to lynch means no lynch at all.

[Santo_Rugger]

@Kat

<snip>But feel perfectly free to make a list of everyone I’ve “defended” by smudging Mad, Santo, Diomedes, etc.
<snip>

You smudged me? I thought your comments on my posts were spot on.

I did notice one thing I didn’t like, though. How would you interpret Rysto’s post that I “interpreted”, if not the way I did:

@Rysto

You want a witch to counter-claim a false witch claim? That’s not a good trade!

Go here for context.

[ShadowFacts]

@Pleonast

Just a reminder: the Day ends at 12 noon (Pacific Time) today. If you have a Day Power, you must PM your orders before then. Only votes posted on or before noon will count towards the final vote tally. I’ll post Dusk as soon as I can, but might not be until the end of the work day.

Remember, a tie vote to lynch means no lynch at all.

Man, we are floundering here. Looking at the votes, three people are tied for the lynch with 2 votes! It’s not the tie that I’m concerned about, but the fact the someone could easily get lynched here with just 3 votes. How ridiculously easy would it be for scum to get someone to 3 votes?? I’m thinking real easy. The lack of information and the lack of voting coupled with the dearth of discussion is absolutely killing us (pun intended).

[HazelNutCoffee]

Sorry to post fluff, but Kat’s [/unvote] typo made me giggle.

[ShadowFacts]

I’m going to take a risk here and float the possibility of voting for No Lynch today. I realize that this is a very dangerous suggestion to put out there because whenever someone brings it up they get “suspected”. Nevertheless, I feel it needs to be discussed.

In a traditional game, of course, No Lynch is generally a bad idea because it nets the town no information and gives scum a “free” night to kill. Also, lynching is the only means Town has to kill scum and thus win. But this is no traditional game, and we may want to consider it for the following reasons:

[ul]
[li]There are several competing scum factions in this game, and as we have seen with Fretful, lynching is not the only way to get rid of scum.[/li][li]The roleclaims are forcing us into last-minute choices, which essentially make it a “whoever gets pegged last gets lynched.” I’ve been talking about this all game, and wish we could get votes in sooner, but people are just not doing it. [/li][li]Roleclaims are forcing Townies to reveal themselves to scum to save themselves. Not lynching someone today would prevent another end-of-day meltdown and possibly keep Town Roles secret for another Day. [/li][li]The information delay makes lynches less immediately useful. Unconfirmed Coroner aside, we don’t know if we got it right for at least one more Day. This makes it harder to go back and analyze what happened. We’re all having a hard time keeping up with the current Day, never mind going back and analyzing previous Days. If we can get sach confirmed, which hopefully will happen at Dawn Tomorrow, then this obviously changes in our favor.[/li][/ul]

So, does anyone think it might make sense to take a breath today and hold off? Or is my reasoning foolish?

Please note that I am not changing my vote at the moment, because I am just bringing these points up for discussion. I’d like to hear what others have to say about it.

[CatInASuit]

@ShadowFacts

Man, we are floundering here. Looking at the votes, three people are tied for the lynch with 2 votes! It’s not the tie that I’m concerned about, but the fact the someone could easily get lynched here with just 3 votes. How ridiculously easy would it be for scum to get someone to 3 votes?? I’m thinking real easy. The lack of information and the lack of voting coupled with the dearth of discussion is absolutely killing us (pun intended).

My biggest fear is that we wind up lynching someone with no roleclaim or we get a several hasty sets of vote - roleclaim - unvote going on and we wind up lynching someone valuable to the town.

[sachertorte]

Quick note on my DiggitCamara vote:
I’m referencing a statement by DiggitCamara where he acknowledges that OAOW certainly false claimed, which is not something DiggitCamara should know at that time (day two).

That plus the whole DiggitCamara isn’t X, Y, or Z type Town makes DiggitCamara my choice for today.

[Blaster_Master]

I apologize to everyone… I haven’t been feeling too hot, and so haven’t had the energy or motivation to post. I’m going to try to disseminate my thoughts and a vote before the deadline. Anyway…

@sachertorte

Don’t be so close minded. I’ve deliberately not told you the roles of players because their roles are precisely a mechanism for you to confirm yourself.

For example:
I’ve told you that amrussell is TOWN. That is sufficient information for you to use your power. You don’t need to know what her role is. You can ASK HER YOURSELF. Thus you could have done so last night, and then today you could announce amrussell’s role. I would confirm/deny you are correct, and you will have confirmed your power (even further confirmation when Pleonast shows you are correct). But now the amrussell option is past. Tomorrow morning Pleonast will announce her role so you will not be able to preempt the public reveal.

Don’t you get it? I don’t need to reveal amrussell’s role to confirm myself.

So no, Idle Thoughts, I have plenty good reason to sit on Roles. And I’m kind of offended that you take this ridiculous position that no one else could possibly understand how to play their own role better than you. How the *#(@ was I supposed to know that you wanted role information to use your secret power? You kept wailing about “confirming” ME – which makes no sense. I will get opportunity (obligation) to confirm myself day after day after day. So forgive me for ignoring your ridiculous requests. :rolleyes: Furthermore, I gave you sufficient information to use your power, TOWN ALIGNMENT. Of course, if you are lying about your role, then obviously you would want me to tell you Roles, because you would not be able to report back to the town with accurate information.

You had a plan for self-confirmation. I see a different plan.

So here we are, amrussell is out since her role gets stated by Pleonast in the morning. Are you prepared to trust me enough to talk with a dead player of my choosing then tell the town their role to prove your power claim? (NB, power claim, not role claim) Personally, I think we should do this Tonight since waiting for a choice role seems… well tempting, but problematic from a time management point of view. (Also note, that Drain Bead’s Side will be revealed before your Night Action for further confirmation of me before you make a final decision). If you agree and the town agrees, I will speak nothing of Idle Thoughts for the rest of the Day save for a last minute post telling Idle Thoughts who to talk to tonight.

I like this plan. Assuming you are who you say you are, you can suggest a person for Idle Thoughts to speak to, especially if someone like a Witch or a Detective or Seer is dead, this will give Idle Thoughts an opportunity to disseminate their information without having to go back looking for crumbs. Further, if he comes back and gives the name of the role, you confirm it, then when Pleonast mod-confirms the role, it gives you both a level of confirmation.

OTOH, if he comes back and you two disagree on roles, we can just sit on it and wait a Day for the mod-confirmation and lynch whoever was full of it.

And Idle, I’m inclined to believe your roleclaim at this point, but I think your hounding of sachetorte is not only poorly reasoned, but ultimately anti-town. If he’s telling the truth, then he really has the town in his interest (and I see where he’s coming from) and all you’re doing is distracting the town from true scum. If he’s lying, and he’s actually scum, he’s bound to get a guess wrong sooner or later, at which point we’ll lynch him. IOW, if he’s scum, he’s got an expiration date.

But, if you follow this plan, YOU can gain some level of confirmation of him Tonight, potentially gain valuable information, AND verify yourself. I would trust that if sachetorte does recommend a person for you to speak to, he’ll give you the best target possible. This also means that, if he gives you a target, and it’s something lame, and then we find out later there was a dead detective or witch or seer, then that’s some strong evidence against him.

So, please, if you haven’t already, I would like to see you two work out this plan.

[Freudian_Slit]

unvote Idle Thoughts

Still not really sure whom I want to vote for. The only thing I can come up with is the DiggitCamara stuff from before. So that’s the only member I’m really leaning towards now…

[Santo_Rugger]

I agree with Shadow, but I think my best bet for a no lynch right now is to leave my vote where it’s at, to form a 3 way tie, to make it harder for the scum to hop in at the last minute with a vote or unvote. We’re in a pretty shitty situation right now, as we have no time for a claim. I’ll gladly change my vote to no lynch, in order to ensure scum can’t manipulate the results this close to the end of the day.

[Boozahol_Squid_P.I]

@Santo Rugger

I agree with Shadow, but I think my best bet for a no lynch right now is to leave my vote where it’s at, to form a 3 way tie, to make it harder for the scum to hop in at the last minute with a vote or unvote. We’re in a pretty shitty situation right now, as we have no time for a claim. I’ll gladly change my vote to no lynch, in order to ensure scum can’t manipulate the results this close to the end of the day.

Well, I, for one, won’t allow a no-lynch. We’ve allowed ourselves to dither about all day without coming to any sorts of conclusions. However, it’s not going to be any easier tomorrow with fewer people. I still think fluid is as good a vote as any, and I’d love to have a plurality vote on her, but I will change my vote to one of the other two candidates (probably MHaye) if need be. Letting scum do all the killing isn’t going to win this game.

[Santo_Rugger]

@Diomedes

Well, I, for one, won’t allow a no-lynch. We’ve allowed ourselves to dither about all day without coming to any sorts of conclusions. However, it’s not going to be any easier tomorrow with fewer people. I still think fluid is as good a vote as any, and I’d love to have a plurality vote on her, but I will change my vote to one of the other two candidates (probably MHaye) if need be. Letting scum do all the killing isn’t going to win this game.

For the most part, I agree. However, I really, really don’t want to lose a townie role because they didn’t have enough time to claim. We got ourselves into this situation, and now we have to figure out how to keep it from damaging us the least.