Mafia: The Conspiracy

Unfortunately, I obviously don’t have the time to follow up on my other suspicions today, but reading through, I’ve only grown more suspicious of fluiddruid

ShadowFacts was correct in labeling this a strawman. I never suggested that people post 50x a day, and I never suggested that people post fluff. In fact, I specifically stated that the concept of lynching lurkers is fundamentally flawed. I was not attacking you for lurking, I was attacking you for being self-contradictory.

What I found suspicious in this point was that you specifically posted a “I have nothing to say” post (which IS fluff, IMO) and then complain that people WANT participation from the lower posters. This entire argument is specious because more CONTENT is good, more POSTS is bad. What I do NOT want to see are a bunch of “I’m up to date, but don’t have anything to say” posts, but what I do want to see is “Here’s my thoughts…”.

IOW, what it appears to me is you’re throwing out comments that essentailly equate to “I don’t agree with the logic” under the cover of a “I don’t have anything to say”. Basically, this stinks of you wanting to have your cake and eat it too, because a post like that can be taken as fluff “oh, I didn’t really have anythign to say about the logic” or “what do you mean, I specifically stated I didn’t agree with the logic”. These sorts of vague comments are common scum strategy IME.

You specifically said “that analysis was circle jerking and burying people in volume”. Well, why don’t you back that up? If you think an argument is specious, make a case for it. You don’t have to give a point by point rebuttal. For instance, I don’t agree with the logic behind the votes for Diggit Camara, I gave my reasons, I didn’t need to do a point-by-point rebuttal.

As for my vote for Drain Bead, yes, that was a mistake on my part. As I realized after the fact, I’d mistaken some of my suspicions from the Firefly game (in which I was actively pursuing a lynch of her) with some suspicions here. However, with no real information to go on, I’m not upset with the fact that an unclaimed individual was lynched. Only under VERY specific circumstances can I ever see a no-lynch being a good idea, and these circumstances have yet to come together in any of the games I’ve played. Either way, we gain information, and information is helpful to the town.

This is precisely my point, and why I’m so suspicious of you. You slip in these comments, because it can be a “see, I thought he was town” but you don’t substantiate it. Now that you’re called on for not substantiating it, you go “oh, well I was going to do that later”. Really? When did you intend to do that? I saw no hint of intention to substantiate your assertion later.

Now, that in and of itself isn’t necessarily a scum tell, I’ll do that from time to time myself. But, what I’m seeing a preponderance of posts that lack accountability and/or can easily be taken post hoc to justify that you either supported a particular argument or had no opinion.

Oh, nice try. This is a point of timing. At the end of the day, yes, I voted for Drain Bead, but it was a choice between Diggit Camara and her, where Idle Thoughts had only just added some believability to his claim. Had I known what I know now (that I’d mixed up some of my tells), I’d probably have gone for Diggit Camara.

However, you had your vote on Diggit LONG before compelling evidence came forth to believe Idle Thoughts’ claim. You were pushing for his lynch and adding fuel to that fire while everyone else was busy trying to sort out that whole mess.

IOW, I would expect a townie to have been just as confused as the rest of us, and you weren’t. You were strangely calm about the whole thing when it was a big clusterfuck to the rest of us, and that’s why I found it suspicious.

On further reflection, it occurs to me that his “slip” doesn’t even preclude him from being a mason. It is entirely possible to be a mason and think certain other roles are, and simply not had the clarification on the matter.

That said, I am NOT a proponent of voting for people for making a mistake that can just as easily be made by a townie. Similarly, I’m not one to go “this slip COULD mean you’re scum” if it could just as reasonably have been made by town. OTOH, a vote for such a slip isn’t necessarily scummy in the absence of more compelling evidence. That is, if I were not suspicious of you now, and I were not suspicious of Idle at the time, I wouldn’t have a problem in voting for Diggit. But there was, at the time, a legitimate case against Idle, and there is a legitimate case, IMO, against you.

Odds are a good thing, and I love bringing math into mafia (as you’ve seen in most recently in Firefly), but it is not the end all, be all of tells. The thing is, however, that in the end, this is still a game of logic and reading people. We only get these numbers with which to theorize through our conversations. And that only adds so much to our total information. So if we lend credence to his slip, he eliminates a few roles making him, based solely on that, something like 80-85% as likely to be town as anyone else at random. However, IMO, he has given no other tells, which leaves his probability of being town reletively unchanged from those odds. OTOH, I have made several points against you, and at the time, Idle had several points against him, both of which I believe lend a MUCH lower probability of the individual being town.

In fact, I’m now all but convinced you’re scum, probably undead, since I think you’re on your own. So, without further ado…

Vote fluid druid

I will make an attempt to follow up on the other names I promised Tomorrow, which I should have more time for.

Well, if Dio is going to change his vote, anyway…

Unvote fluiddruid

Vote No Lynch

Can we call “No Lynch”, “Top Dog”?

Or, never mind?

Vote fluiddruid

Unvote No Lynch

Can we still call “No Lynch”, “Top Dog”?

Current Vote Count as **Pleonast ** is not around:

fluiddruid (3) <= Diomedes (928), Santos Rugger (1003), Blaster Master (1041), [Santos Rugger (1042)], Santos Rugger (1043)

DiggitCamara (2) <= ShadowFacts (999), sachertorte (1010)
MHaye (2) <= CatInASuit (988), Hockey Monkey (1015)

HazelNutCoffee (1) <= nesta (917)
nesta (1) <= HazelNutCoffee (1025)
Zoggie (1) <= Idle Thoughts (908), Kat (1019), [Kat (1028)]

Idle Thoughts (0) <= Zoggie (909), [Zoggie (1037)]
No Lynch (0) <= Santos Rugger (1042), [Santos Rugger (1043)]

I am adamantly against a no-lynch, as the lynch is the town’s most powerful weapon. I will address each of your points.

This much is true; however, you’re going to depend on luck. Odds are, however, that the scum will hit town over opposing scum, simply because we likely outnumber any potential scum faction (because if we don’t, the game is probably broken from the get-go).

Further, we have no control over those Night kills. During the Day, we can raise logic, and gain information. At Night, especially now that we probably have at least one valuable role revealed in Idle, they WILL be using this information against us.

For instance, a role like the Witchdoctor is more of a threat to the wolves or undead than the cabal or either of the killing scum factions are. They would be of the best mind to target their greatest threat, not just be shooting in the dark and rolling a die.

No disagreement from me here. However, by no-lynching, we are condoning this sort of action on behalf of the scum to play delay tactics in voting and role-claiming to try to confuse the town, and let them make all of the decisions.

The solution to this problem isn’t to no-lynch, but to convince people to “vote early and vote often”. We do not have a methodology for ending the Day early AFAICT, so why not get all of our votes out there as soon as we reasonably can?

Would you rather they simply die at Night because the whole town thinks they’re a wolf, but the wolves KNOW he’s not… or maybe the undead is convinced and kills him. OTOH, if he role claims, we gain the benefit of whatever information that role has to bequeath to the town.

What if it’s a valuable role, like a witch or seer or detective? By claiming, they provide an opportunity for some amount of coordination effort with other roles or to receive protection from other roles where they otherwise might not make it through the Night.

One thing you have to remember is that someone being suspicious is often enough for scum to let them live through the Night… that is NOT necessarily the case in this game, because someone being suspicious COULD mean they’re the necromancer or a cabal or a vampire or a wolf, and any opposed killing faction might think it’s worth while to take them out.

The information delay makes lynches less immediately useful. Unconfirmed Coroner aside, we don’t know if we got it right for at least one more Day. This makes it harder to go back and analyze what happened. We’re all having a hard time keeping up with the current Day, never mind going back and analyzing previous Days. If we can get sach confirmed, which hopefully will happen at Dawn Tomorrow, then this obviously changes in our favor.
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Huh? What do you mean “unconfirmed coroner aside”? Whether or not he’s confirmed, he’s either an asset to the town, or he’s setting himself up to get lynched later. I’m inclined to trust him at this point, and we’ve have a MUCH better opinion of him come dawn, which means that, if he’s telling the truth, this entire point is essentially moot.

I disagree VERY strongly with your point. Don’t forget the downsides like handing all the information we generated plus whatever information the scum factions have themselves and letting THEM choose who dies. I’m also of the mind that we have some VERY strong scum candidates, and I will adjust my vote as necessary to ensure a lynch in order of those I find scummiest. At this point, that is fluiddruid, but if she won’t hang, I’d give consideration to MHaye thereafter.

**sachertorte ** - Do you have a link to a post showing where this occured?

post 562

Thanks, sacher. This is jumping out at me, too. Dunno, maybe it’s a coincidence that Fretful came back. But how did he know that would happen? (Also, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, since we were told what Fretful was just before she was resurrected.)

But you do have to put this in the context that he was under the impression (or so he claims) that the Vig was a free-mason. Thus, in this post, he seems to be asserting he thinks OAOW false-claimed because he didn’t claim like a mason.

I don’t understand.

DiggitCamara thought that the Vigilante was also a freemason, so that **OAOW ** should have claimed Freemason as part of the main group instead of claiming the precise role of Vigilante.

(underlining mine)
Now, as you can see, I was making some guesses (which alignment you would know) and was basing my ideas on some assumptions, some of which already have been proven as being wrong (Pleonast corrected me on the idea that a zombie’s alignment would be concealed) and some of which are baseless (probably. sachertorte is almost certainly the coroner)

As to why I thought he was on the same side as One and Only Wanderers, well, his alignment couldn’t be concealed via zombiefication because he was lynched. So the disclosure of his alignment couldn’t be prevented. (and wouldn’t be even if had been killed at Night, so my point was moot anyway).

I’m voting again.

Vote DiggitCamara

Still not making sense. Maybe I am obtuse! :stuck_out_tongue:

Uh, are we tied now?

fluiddruid (3) <= Diomedes (928), Santos Rugger (1003), Blaster Master (1041), [Santos Rugger (1042)], Santos Rugger (1043)
DiggitCamara (2) <= ShadowFacts (999), sachertorte (1010), Zoggie (1053)

MHaye (2) <= CatInASuit (988), Hockey Monkey (1015)

HazelNutCoffee (1) <= nesta (917)
nesta (1) <= HazelNutCoffee (1025)
Zoggie (1) <= Idle Thoughts (908), Kat (1019), [Kat (1028)]

Idle Thoughts (0) <= Zoggie (909), [Zoggie (1037)]
No Lynch (0) <= Santos Rugger (1042), [Santos Rugger (1043)]

…and I didn’t know that we would be told until Pleonast clarified that point.
In other words: I made a guess based on multiple wrong assumptions.

Ah Ha! I get it now.
Still not moving my vote though.

Aargh, it should be 3 for **fluiddruid ** and DiggitCamara

Think of it this way.

The 3 freemasons can find each other using their secret gesture
1 freemason is also the scotsman who can evade a lynch/night kill
1 freemason is also the vigliante who can night kill
1 freemason is also the magician who can evade a night kill

(ok there may be more or less than 3 freemasons, its just an example :stuck_out_tongue: )

I’m not trying to twist your words. I quoted your entire post so that others could read it and see if it sounds the same to them as it does to me. When I read your post and put myself back in the mindset of not knowing Fretful was a werewolf it seems to me a post that a werewolf would make after one of their own was night-killed. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I get a scummy vibe from you and the two posts of yours I quoted contributed to that vibe so I pointed them out for the rest of the town’s inspection.

Sorry, I missed that post by Diomedes, so I retract the point that you were the only one who seemed to take sach’ side information as a given. And yes, I find that scummy of Diomedes as well.

The posts that said something like “Yay us, that is if we can trust sach” don’t seem scummy to me because they mirrored my own feelings at the time. Not thinking to ask the question strikes me as having too much information.

First, I’m not sure what you assumed about scum that I consider incorrect. My point about your posts was that you were right, but scum had a much higher chance of being right at the time.

Second, yes, I made a mistake about you being the only one not to question sach’s side revelation. The fact (or lack thereof as you point out) that you were the only one wasn’t central to my suspicion of you.

That’s almost an OMGUS vote, but at least you have reasons other than the fact that I voted for you. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one or more scum on the Drain Bead bandwagon even if Drain was scum. Once again, though, you seem convinced that sach is correct about Drain’s side before Pleonast confirms it.

So we’re at an impasse. Do we lynch or not?