Mafia: The Conspiracy

The Game Room
161

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
A new game.

Now, with this one, where EVERYONE has a role of some sort (and we know what the roles actually ARE, unlike in a closed game), what would prevent a mass role claim? Or am I missing something? Wouldn’t a mass roleclaim screw scum over?

Please note: I’m not proposing we do this, I’m just asking what would stop that from working or being successful–lest people start jumping my freaking back for “oh think we should mass roleclaim, ehhhhh, Idle Thoughts?”
[/QUOTE]

And here I was thinking how special I was, not having a plan vanilla role in either of my first two games! :cool:

I’m thinking that the problem with it is that the scum just wouldn’t say anything, and just wouldn’t go along with the entire idea. Because that’s a possibility, town power (well, powerfuller) roles might not go along, for fear of giving the Vampire knowledge of who the Vig is, or the werewolves knowledge of where the witches, seer or detective are.

162

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
vote: Zoggie

for bringing up the tired old Hal=ovinaphile joke.
[/QUOTE]

I resent that!

Hal’s daughter really was adorable. Much in the fashion of a cute barnyard lamb.

163

[QUOTE=Zoggie]
I resent that!

Hal’s daughter really was adorable. Much in the fashion of a cute barnyard lamb.
[/QUOTE]

Would it be better if I said I was voting for you because of a deeply ingrained fear of the letter ‘Z’?

164

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
Would it be better if I said I was voting for you because of a deeply ingrained fear of the letter ‘Z’?
[/QUOTE]

That works. So how does this mass role claim work? Is it a sort of, “I am Spartacus” thing?

165

Mass role claim? We’re not doing a mass role claim! That’d get the Seer, Vicar, Detective and Witches killed right away, and then we wouldn’t stand a chance.

166

[QUOTE=Rysto]
Mass role claim? We’re not doing a mass role claim! That’d get the Seer, Vicar, Detective and Witches killed right away, and then we wouldn’t stand a chance.
[/QUOTE]

I’m fine with getting the Seer, Vicar, Detective and Witches killed as long as all the scum were honest about their claims. :cool:

167

But it wouldn’t matter then because town would have won in a few Days since the only ones who wouldn’t be okay with mass claiming would be scum (I’d think).

I’m just saying, say everyone role claimed what they are. Obviously Town would all tell the truth. The only ones with stuff to hide would be: The Cabal, the Necromancer, the Vampire, and the Werewolves. But if everyone was mass roleclaiming, they’d have to go along with it…and thus, they’d have to lie (I.E. roleclaim something that either was already roleclaimed or that someone else really has but hasn’t roleclaimed yet).

Even in the case where two people are claiming the same thing, though, Town would eventually find out who was lying and who wasn’t. It would only take a few extra Days. shrug

Anyway, it would work out, by how I see it. I’m asking what’s to prevent it from happening or making it unsuccessful? I’m not saying it should happen, but someone tell me, if they can see it, how it would be uncuccessful or not work if Town were honest about all their roles and came out with it?

Does anyone get what I’m saying?

168

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
But it wouldn’t matter then because town would have won in a few Days since the only ones who wouldn’t be okay with mass claiming would be scum (I’d think).

I’m just saying, say everyone role claimed what they are. Obviously Town would all tell the truth. The only ones with stuff to hide would be: The Cabal, the Necromancer, the Vampire, and the Werewolves. But if everyone was mass roleclaiming, they’d have to go along with it..and thus, they’d have to lie (I.E. roleclaim something that either was already roleclaimed or that someone else really has but hasn’t roleclaimed yet).

Even in the case where two people are claiming the same thing, though, Town would eventually find out who was lying and who wasn’t. It would only take a few extra Days. shrug

Anyway, it would work out, by how I see it. I’m asking what’s to prevent it from happening or making it unsuccessful? I’m not saying it should happen, but someone tell me, if they can see it, how it would be uncuccessful or not work if Town were honest about all their roles and came out with it?

Does anyone get what I’m saying?
[/QUOTE]

I get it, but I don’t think it’ll necessarily work in our situation: the scum get two kills (wolves and Vampire) a night to knock off power roles while we try to ascertain who’s telling the truth and who’s not. Some of the scum will doubtlessly claim freemason, and it might take four or five nights for the masons to sort out amongst themselves who all of the masons really are. During that time, the Cabal blocks the claimed-witches from protecting anyone, so the town loses number not only to mislynching the wrong half of a claimed role, but to night kills. And, if any of the scum make a claim for a role that isn’t assigned to anyone else (Pleo said that some roles wouldn’t be used), then the town would finally get done with its bloody reign of murder, only to discover a Vampire or the Omega Wolf or the Necromancer still in their midst, with a lot of the protective roles killed off.

Depending on the set-up in the beginning, it might work. But we don’t know how many cabalists or werewolves there are in the game… there might be enough that a mass roleclaim might lose the game from the getgo.

169

Off and running already are we? I’m intriqued by the mass-role claim question, but personally don’t think the game will be much fun if it happens. Everybody has something to do covertly that will affect the game, and not all the roles that Pleonast put in the rules are present. I did some rough calculations…there are 22 of us, and 18 named roles…some of which we already know will number more than 1 (like the Witches, Cabalists, Werewolves, and Vampires). Figuring out how to best work together to abolish the scum factions, I think, is going to be the most important and most fun part of this game.

170

[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey]
some of which we already know will number more than 1 (like the Witches, Cabalists, Werewolves, and Vampires)
[/QUOTE]

I think (and hope) there’s only one Vampire. There are also multiple masons.

171

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
I think (and hope) there’s only one Vampire. There are also multiple masons.
[/QUOTE]

Unless Hockey Monkey knows something that the rest of us don’t…

172

[QUOTE=Diomedes]
I get it, but I don’t think it’ll necessarily work in our situation: the scum get two kills (wolves and Vampire) a night to knock off power roles while we try to ascertain who’s telling the truth and who’s not. Some of the scum will doubtlessly claim freemason, and it might take four or five nights for the masons to sort out amongst themselves who all of the masons really are. During that time, the Cabal blocks the claimed-witches from protecting anyone, so the town loses number not only to mislynching the wrong half of a claimed role, but to night kills. And, if any of the scum make a claim for a role that isn’t assigned to anyone else (Pleo said that some roles wouldn’t be used), then the town would finally get done with its bloody reign of murder, only to discover a Vampire or the Omega Wolf or the Necromancer still in their midst, with a lot of the protective roles killed off.

Depending on the set-up in the beginning, it might work. But we don’t know how many cabalists or werewolves there are in the game… there might be enough that a mass roleclaim might lose the game from the getgo.
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Not only that, but we don’t actually know what roles are in, nor how many of those roles that are present are there:

… and, like Pleonast pointed out, the information about anyone who dies is actually delayed.

And add to that that there is (probably) a Necromancer, who’ll really profit by a mass claim (he’ll hide somewhere and use the carnage to multiply his zombies)…

173

Okay, just to get this out of the way:
Vote MadtheSwine

There. Now I shouldn’t die right away.

174

Just so you guys know, I’m going to be gone until Tuesday evening. I’ll have internet access, but will be relatively busy. I’ll do my best to check in once a RL day, but I can’t promise anything. After that, I’m here for the duration.

175

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
Anyway, it would work out, by how I see it. I’m asking what’s to prevent it from happening or making it unsuccessful? I’m not saying it should happen, but someone tell me, if they can see it, how it would be uncuccessful or not work if Town were honest about all their roles and came out with it?
[/QUOTE]

Well, presumably the scum would just false roleclaim, right? Then we’d have a whole group of people all claiming to be town with no quick way to verify anything (which is essentially what we have right now at the start of the game). Except if the Town are honest, the scum will know exactly what role everyone is. How does *that *help the town?

I’m not seeing the merit in this plan.

176

[QUOTE=Zoggie]
Unless Hockey Monkey knows something that the rest of us don’t…
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Since **Pleonast ** referred to Vampires in the plural several times in the role list, I guess I parsed that as more than one in the game. And yes I did forget the Freemasons in that list. I’ll hope there is only one, but I left the possibility for 2-3 in my notes. Trying to outguess the Mod usually leads to heartache, but I like to start working with a worst case scenario. With everyone being a power role, I would think that there are more scum than normal in this game, divided among the factions, in order to balance.

177

[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
Well, presumably the scum would just false roleclaim, right? Then we’d have a whole group of people all claiming to be town with no quick way to verify anything (which is essentially what we have right now at the start of the game). Except if the Town are honest, the scum will know exactly what role everyone is. How does *that *help the town?

I’m not seeing the merit in this plan.
[/QUOTE]

This was discussed at some length during Day 1 in the Firefly game being played on the other board. I would say go read it but Day 1 was very long and was quite confusing. If you like confusion, though, it’s looking to be an interesting game.

The short of it is in games where everyone has a role a mass-claim can be game breaking and is a short path to victory. The scum must role-claim town roles, and of course will be counter-claimed by the real holders of those roles. I haven’t done the math, but since scum must be outnumbered in the beginning if we just go down the list of overlapping claims and lynch one-for-one, and many times the first lynch will be scum so the second won’t be necessary, we’ll win.

The possibility that roles weren’t included does throw a little bit of a monkey wrench into the plan, though. If scum claims one of the roles not in the game they have a high chance of surviving to the end-game since no one would counter-claim.

I haven’t given it enough thought to be sure, but in this game I think a mass-claim could be a winning strategy even with the missing roles. It does seem a bit risky, though.

Of course, this game started after the Firefly game did and I think Pleonast might have been following that game and would have seen the mass-claim strategy and could have done something in this game to counter that. Other than secret roles or switching things around a little I’m not sure how, but it’s a possibility.

That said, even if I was very convinced that it would be a game winning strategy, I wouldn’t want to do it this early. I signed up for this game hoping it would be a very interesting game, not a series of predetermined lynches. Also, Pleonast obviously put a lot of work into the game design (and hopefully balance), and I feel like it’s a bit against the spirit of this particular game to try to break it too soon. We should keep some mass-claims in mind later in the game, though, like if the masons or witches can turn things mid/late-game by narrowing down the possibilities by all claiming and verifying each other, or even a total mass-claim if it comes down to it.

178

Thank you for saying what I probably would have taken 200 pages to say, nesta.

179

[QUOTE=Rysto]
Ok, we need to get something going here. Random.org says:

Vote amrussell
[/QUOTE]

Oh sure, if you’re going to be believe everything you read on the internet…

Regarding mass-role claims: it crossed my mind as well, but I’m just not sure it’ll work. Between the potential missing roles, the delay in verification, the 2:1 scum kill rate, the zombie problem and the chances of town error, victory won’t exactly be written in stone.

Besides which, there are quite a few town roles who are much stronger hidden. Not just the obvious investigator/doctor types, but others who essentially function as tripwires to reveal scum. Keeping these roles behind a veil of ignorance will create fear, uncertainty and doubt in the cold, black hearts of the scum, and that can only be a good thing.

There’s a sketchy argument for Freemasons role-claiming. They’re only going to be useful once they’ve found each other and Day claims could be confirmed by the group at Night. But either two of them would wake up dead or we’d tie up the whole town’s protecting/resurrecting capability, giving the scum a free rein to go after the rest of the town. It’s certainly not worth exchanging a Witch or a Detective for a Freemason, so I’d suggest that, right now, a role claim is a bad idea even for the most expendable and confirmable players.

180

I haven’t completely wrapped my head around the rules of this game (and probably won’t have for a while), but I think you’re right. The thing about this game is that information is currency – the only reason why scum can win at all, given their relatively low numbers, is that they have more information than town. In the case of a mass role-claim, they STILL have more information than town, perhaps by an even larger margin, since they know which role-claims are true and which are false, and they can assume that any unknown claiming a major power role really is that power role. In general, the town’s best bet is to keep quiet and keep that information gap as small as possible, until such time as it becomes necessary to reveal some of the roles.