Mafia: The Thrill of the Chase [Newbie Friendly!]

[special_ed]

hmmm Are you still a little bitter about the whole posting game information outside of the game thread issue?

@Svejk_1

This is some weak-ass shit right here.

1. If you want to know why read my posts? What, all 49 of them? What makes you so special that think you get away with pointing such a weakly phrased suspicion without any sort of justification (or even a summary of one), or a link to a previous comment? When this is what you have been calling people out for? Telling other people to do the legwork seems like a lazy and scummy thing to do, and your comment in post 355 does very little to change my opinion. You’re casting suspicions far too lightly and in doing so you are unfair to the ones you accuse but far more importantly, you are holding out on us.

I had had a conversation with fisha about what I found suspicious regarding the timing of her vote. If it didn’t satisfy you or you failed to understand, why didn’t you ask questions about it? If you did, I failed to notice them.

You may judge my suspicions light, but they were the best I had. And I voted. Were your suspicions cast with more weight?

@Svejk_1

2. Which brings me to my next point - I actually brought this up not too long ago in post #329 and you never bothered to reply. I can’t find the post right now, but I distinctly recall someone claiming that ignoring single accusations and waiting for more to accumulate is a scum tell.

Two issues with this paragraph:

First:

You made a point. I read it. I felt it didn’t need comment. To summarize your point: you felt I shoudl accept extra scrutiny because I post a great deal. This is true. And I do.

You quoted a post made by me in response to another player who had said they found me Scummy but wasn’t going to detail it. As I wrote the post, it appears, they were making those comments, and I retracted my statement. I pretty much felt the issue was over and needed no more comment.

Second:

You recall someone at some point, making a comment that ‘what I’m accusing Ed of" is a Scum tell.’

I can’t really fact check that. However, I can tell you that it’s probably not true. Sometimes people say things, and I don’t pay them much attention. I don’t find that to be a Scum tell. Also, you ‘accused’ me of what? of needing to accept scrutiny? Um…OK…How does one respond to such an “accusation”?

@Svejk_1

3. Your vote for choie is based on even less of a justification than your suspicion of fisha. You weren’t completely pleased with his post #333 but what does that even mean? what did you expect to get from this post that it did not provide to you exactly? I can speculate but really you should be telling us instead of having us speculate. Frankly, I can understand where choie’s coming from, and I think she’s right in pointing out that voting is pretty random on the first day and becomes more informed as the day goes on (how could that not be true); I think it still makes sense to go through this phase of the game to tease out information that may be usefull to town later, but I understand the sentiment.

You are evaluating my justifications. And you are fully entitled to. I made a different judgement.

If you didn’t understand my comments, why didn’t you ask me about them? I don’t like “I don’t know what to do” posts. On day 1, I feel it is something newer Scum are likely to do.

So, for a Day 1 case, it’s OK. Not powerful, not strong, but it’s OK.

That’s about it. Nothing earth shattering. Pretty simple. I thought I explained myself well enough. You might agree with her sentiment. Many newer players do.

@Svejk_1

4. Including some reference to another player’s actions in some unspecified older game is completely useless to me You pointed out to me how it’s not good to offer information that some players may not have access too - you’re essentially doing the same.

There is a difference between what I did and what you did. I brought information into the game. it became part of the permanent record of the game. it’s here. yes, the information came from outside of the game. yes, it may not be easily understood by everyone. But once I presented it, I cannot change it. it is information from my experience playing the game. You were certain able to access the information. You may nto have been able to fully understand the information. However, are you now contending that presenting things that you don’t understand is a Scum tell? Or is this a sign that you’re still a little bitter and defensive?

Also, when I made my point earlier about outside information. You should have noticed that it wasn’t accusatory. I was trying to provide helpful information to you. Again, I apologize if I didn’t express that well.

And now, for what is often used as a disclaimer by newer Scum (often, not always) when they cast a vote for a town player;

I'm not sure what to call it, lessening accountability (You can always say later, "Well, I said I wasn't sure.", maybe back-pedaling in advance. I don't know.



[quote="Svejk_1, post:361, topic:603526"]


[/indent]I am not 100% convinced that you are scum but I think that it is a distinct possibility. More seriously though, I haven't really found your posting in this thread to be a contribution to towns effort. Whether that is because you might be scum, or perhaps because your style just rubs me the wrong way, I don't know, but either way I am going to: 


[/quote]


You just don't like me. And I might be Scum. 

I can try to help with the first part. I really am a pretty nice guy. I can be gruff. When I play this game, I can come off aggressive (I find it helps to put pressure on people. You're more likely to see them crack that way.) I can't help with second part.

[special_ed]

@Svejk_1

That’s rich - you never responded to it!

I was in the process of doing so.

I made my shorter posts first though.

[Astral_Rejection]

@Mahaloth

Wait. People don’t like me?

I like you.

(cue everyone else saying they like you, too. Don’t take his comment so seriously, because he certainly isn’t talking for everyone.)

[Mahaloth]

@special_ed

I like you.

Idiot

@Astral_Rejection

I like you.

(cue everyone else saying they like you, too. Don’t take his comment so seriously, because he certainly isn’t talking for everyone.)

Thanks, guys.

Naturally, I now assume both of your are scum for saying anything positive or supportive.

[Precambrianmollusc]

He is ok, for a Mahaloth.

[choie]

@Mahaloth

Thanks, guys.

Naturally, I now assume both of your are scum for saying anything positive or supportive.

Well now I don’t like you 'cause you ignored me!

[Mahaloth]

@choie

Well now I don’t like you 'cause you ignored me!

Heh. Sorry, I really didn’t see anything wrong with your original joke. I’m still disappointed no player ever made a guess at my quirk, though. You got it, but no non-actors/guests guessed even once, I think.

[choie]

@Mahaloth

Heh. Sorry, I really didn’t see anything wrong with your original joke. I’m still disappointed no player ever made a guess at my quirk, though. You got it, but no non-actors/guests guessed even once, I think.

Yeah, I think only one person made any attempt at mine, and that was only after I practically put a gun to their heads. After all the hard work we’d done! It’s also a shame because whoever came up with those quirks (Inner Stickler presumably, but possibly also twixster?) did a damn good job at coming up with some goodies. Next time I’m gonna try to be a host if at all possible; a good Party Quirks game needs very active hosts, and ours were unfortunately waylaid by real life.

Um. Anyway, back on topic. So, I’m town. You town?

[Svejk_1]

@special_ed

hmmm Are you still a little bitter about the whole posting game information outside of the game thread issue?

No. Thanks for asking. As I said above, I overreacted and I appreciate the explanation that was offered, although I maintain (as I’ve said upthread) that that scuffle could have been avoided if a more thorough explanation had been offered sooner.

I had had a conversation with fisha about what I found suspicious regarding the timing of her vote. If it didn’t satisfy you or you failed to understand, why didn’t you ask questions about it? If you did, I failed to notice them.

My issue is not that I don’t understand what exactly you have against fisha, but rather that I find what you did lazy. The thread is long and getting longer, so the odds of people actually going back is getting slimmer. That means that the chance exists for scum to cast about false aspersions that people won’t verify. A town FoS to my mind reads like:

[QUOTE=Town FoS]
I cast an FoS on X player because of her behavior in posts a, and b; I pointed this out in post c and her response in post d is not satisfactory for the following reason.
[/QUOTE]

You’re FoS does not read like this, which I find scummy; a town FoS makes it easy for other townies to judge the merits of the FoS and point out flaws, and in doing so contributes. You don’t do this. Incidentally, the post where you actually mention fisha’s timing reads in full “This would be more palatable if it weren’t for the timing.” Pretty useless if you ask me.

You may judge my suspicions light, but they were the best I had. And I voted. Were your suspicions cast with more weight?

Yes, I think so.

Two issues with this paragraph:

First: You made a point. I read it. I felt it didn’t need comment. To summarize your point: you felt I shoudl accept extra scrutiny because I post a great deal. This is true. And I do.

You quoted a post made by me in response to another player who had said they found me Scummy but wasn’t going to detail it. As I wrote the post, it appears, they were making those comments, and I retracted my statement. I pretty much felt the issue was over and needed no more comment.

For the record, Fubbleskag did not say you were scummy, he (?) said he found you posted a lot and said very little, and that he was going to follow up later. I agree with him that you post a lot and say little. My point was not that you should accept scrutiny, but that you don’t contribute, that you are a freerider. From that post #329

[QUOTE=me, post #329]
The posts you {Special Ed} contribute largely deal with game mechanics, or they reject other people’s reasoning (bah!) without really offering a very clear substitute. (…) Also, both Stickler and Ed are amongst the more seasoned players in this game, so it would be nice to see some guidance from them. I want to hold out judgement on all of this - perhaps the guidance being offered here is that it is good to vote late and reserve judgment in the meantime. At the same time, there’s an element of freeriding here that I want to call out. Other people are risking their necks by casting votes which incites the necessary discussion that may allow us toDay or later in the game to identify scum.
[/QUOTE]

Second: You recall someone at some point, making a comment that ‘what I’m accusing Ed of" is a Scum tell.’

I can’t really fact check that. However, I can tell you that it’s probably not true. Sometimes people say things, and I don’t pay them much attention. I don’t find that to be a Scum tell. Also, you ‘accused’ me of what? of needing to accept scrutiny? Um…OK…How does one respond to such an “accusation”?

As per the quote from my post #329 above, clearly the accusation is more than you needing to accept scrutiny. Perhaps my point that you are not contributing should have been made more clearly but I think it was obvious enough that you could have responded to it (Stickler did, and that post did not call him out like it did you). I argued at the time and maintain today that choosing to overlook a clear accusation against you is a scummy thing to do. Someone else said that to I think, but that’s neither here nor there, and you don’t really have to fact check that since the merits of my argument stand regardless of whether someone on the Internet agrees or not.

You are evaluating my justifications. And you are fully entitled to. I made a different judgement. If you didn’t understand my comments, why didn’t you ask me about them?

What gives you the idea that my lack of understanding is the issue here? I maybe new to this game but I’m not stupid. If anything, you are lazy in explicating your own thoughts which makes them inaccessible to others but that’s hardly my fault.

There is a difference between what I did and what you did. I brought information into the game. it became part of the permanent record of the game. it’s here. yes, the information came from outside of the game. yes, it may not be easily understood by everyone. But once I presented it, I cannot change it. it is information from my experience playing the game. You were certain able to access the information. You may nto have been able to fully understand the information. However, are you now contending that presenting things that you don’t understand is a Scum tell? Or is this a sign that you’re still a little bitter and defensive?

I realize that it is not exactly the same, but that is hardly the issue. Of course my real problem here lies again with the fact that you make something a part of your argumentation that for a lot people in this game is either incredibly difficult or impossible to verify (which means they probably won’t), which means that it does not really contribute. Why would you do that? Would it kill you to post something like this:

This reminds me of player X in game Y who did Z (link). Doing Z was a scum tell for the following reason; X later turned out to be the Godfather

If I am then too obtuse to understand the reasoning, then at least you’ll have done due diligence and you can’t be blamed for my dumbening.

You just don’t like me. And I might be Scum.

I can try to help with the first part. I really am a pretty nice guy. I can be gruff. When I play this game, I can come off aggressive (I find it helps to put pressure on people. You’re more likely to see them crack that way.) I can’t help with second part.

I find that bringing up our interchange over outside information and your suggestion that I am still bitter about it, along with your suggestion that since I’m a newbie I just don’t understand what is going on, is just an easy way for you to avoid having to really address my problems with you. Me liking you or not is hardly the issue, and trying to reduce my posts to ‘Special Ed, I don’t like you’ is just too easy. In sum, as I’m sure you’re aware, your post has done nothing to convince me that I voted wrong on the first day.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

gregorio crept down the dark alley, clutching a note. The note had told him to come immediately, never mind the game or anything else–and he wouldn’t normally mind such a thing, but there was something incredibly…smelly about the little scrap of paper, letters dotted in curly-queues. He waited with sharp breath, hoping for something, staring up and down at the gloom, heart beating…

He never had a chance.

Most of the township stumbled out into the light of the day, yawning and messy, groggy with the best of them, clothes and hair sticking up in random places like so many hedgehogs. All except poor wevets, curled up in his bed, clutching the bed with a knife in his back. The room was dolled up to the nines, with little hearts and confetti (and graffiti) on every wall. Looks like he had his last affair…

Gregorio, the Dedicated Detective (Town Cop) has died
wevets, the Puppy-Loyal Boyfriend (Town Bodyguard) has died

It is now Day 2. Day 2 ends at 10:00 AM MGT on Friday, Dec 9th.

[Svejk_1]

Fuck!

[special_ed]

@Švejk

OK, you can continue to hold me to that high standard.

I’ll admit, in games past, I did a lot of looking back, a lot of quoting, a lot of detailed analysis. I explained myself time and again. I tired to convince others to agree with me.

Ask any experienced players how well that worked out for me.

I have more fun when I just read along, make my comments, and vote. Make a few comments I find amusing, and try to win. I don’t spend a lot of time looking back anymore. I rely on my effort and the efforts of others to remind me of things that happened.

I’ve actually done much better recently, but more importantly, I’ve enjoyed the games more.

While it might be nice to get more explanation out of my, a more seasoned player, it’s probably not highly likely.

If you’re unhappy with it, I can certainly understand. I have gone trough games where I called people out for being lazy myself. “Idiot” was probably my favorite word. However, they’ve won me over. Now, when I see something I don’t like, I’m probably just going to say “Bah” Maybe explain myself at some point, and leave it to everyone else to decide what they want to do about it.

If you want to find all of that Scummy, go ahead. You can.
I also notice that you responded to me, but left out the one part of my post that might be considered an accusation. Any particular reason for that?

[choie]

Dammit.

It took me a few minutes to realize gregorio wasn’t an NPC like Eduardo. I don’t think the guy posted once the entire game.

Anyway, two kills means… what exactly? A regular scum kill plus a possible Assassin or Vig?

And why were wevets and gregorio targeted? That seems like one helluva lot of good luck for scum, killing two power roles right off the bat.

[special_ed]

@choie

Dammit.

It took me a few minutes to realize gregorio wasn’t an NPC like Eduardo. I don’t think the guy posted once the entire game.

Anyway, two kills means… what exactly? A regular scum kill plus a possible Assassin or Vig?

And why were wevets and gregorio targeted? That seems like one helluva lot of good luck for scum, killing two power roles right off the bat.

I would guess that wevets might not have been targeted. A body guard role often takes a kill intended for someone else.

From our wiki

Bodyguard is a Town aligned role. The Bodyguard can guard another player. If that player would be killed, the Bodyguard (and sometimes also the attacker will) die instead.
Sometimes the Bodyguard can pick a new player to guard every Night.
Variations
[ul]
[li]Human Shield: Can guard another player. If that player would be killed, the Shield will be killed instead.[/li][li]Elite Bodyguard: Can guard another player. If that player would be killed, you will kill the attacker instead.[/li][li]Magnet: Can change another player’s night action to target yourself.[/li][li]Martyr: You can sacrifice yourself to prevent all other kills.[/li][li]Reflector: Can give someone a reflection shield. Any other actions targeting that player will be reflected back.[/li][/ul]

I would guess we had a regular Scum kill and then either a Vigilante or Serial Killer.

Gregario fits the bill for an early Vigilante kill. Some maintain that killing off a lurker is the best move for a Vigilante without more information.

[Svejk_1]

I think Gregorio was targeted by a vig taking out lurkers/non-contributors. Wevets might have been a scum kill or a sk kill, in which latter case a scum kill would have been prevented by a doctor. That seems like a less likely scenario.

@Ed - I’m sorry for not responding to your accusation in my longer post. I take it you are referring to this bit:

And now, for what is often used as a disclaimer by newer Scum (often, not always) when they cast a vote for a town player; I’m not sure what to call it, lessening accountability (You can always say later, “Well, I said I wasn’t sure.”, maybe back-pedaling in advance. I don’t know.

I see what you are saying. I’ll have to take your word for it that saying you are not 100% sure is something that scum would do more often than town (you don’t say this but it seems to be the implication). I’m not sure whether that is really the case though and why scum would be more interested than town in doing this. A lot of votes in this game thus far have been accompanied by such a disclaimer stating that the justifications were weak or some such. On day one this seems only fair. I included those sentences because I thought it’d be wise to play an open game which would be in the interest of those trying to evaluate my case against you.

As for your reply above, I like it. Here finally you are not trying to make this be about me, how i’m new, bitter, and how I maybe don’t understand all sorts of things, but you say something about yourself, admitting in the process that I am right in saying what I say about you. I’ll have to contemplate what I want to make of that, but for the moment let me just say that I like this post better than your previous one directed at me (#421).

[special_ed]

Glad I could do something you like

[choie]

Thanks for the info, guys. I didn’t catch that the bodyguard could either have prevented another kill, or it could indicate a vig taking out an inactive player.

That just leaves us to ponder why wevets was killed. That’s a huge loss for us, especially on Night 1, when we didn’t get any info out of him/her at all.

(I can’t believe this is your first game, Švejk. Dayum you’re knowledgable.)

[choie]

Fuck me: Not edited to add “strike that, reverse it.” I meant gregario is a big loss, not wevets. (No offense to wevets.)

[GuiriEnEspana]

Ouch. I agree that Gregorio, with just two posts to his name, is likely to have been vigged, or killed by a serial killers who intends to false claim vig, due to his lack of participation. Losing a cop sucks, even if he may never have used his power.

As for Wevets, it could have been anything: a vig aiming for a second place lynch candidate, scum really worried that he’d become almost confirmed after yesterDay’s stand-off, dying while protecting someone else who was targeted. If the latter, and if he had any say in the choice of target, well done Wevets!

[GuiriEnEspana]

@Svejk_1

Am I not getting something? I realize that (as per FluidDruid’s post quoted above) last minute votes and vote shifts may be suspicious, but if it concerns one of the people that is at risk themselves it has to be more understandable, no?

A self-defense vote switch is understandable and a common occurence, just not at the very last minute. A last minute vote switch is an attempt to single-handedly decide the lynch outcome and save one’s ass. Purposely waiting till the very last minute is an attempt to deceive and gain another Day. Septimus did this recently.

@Svejk_1

I also wonder how come not a single poster saw fit to break the tie.

Well, in my case I didn’t feel strongly enough about their scumminess to decide which to sentence and didn’t have a Town lean from any of them to decide which to save, random was OK for me.

@Scathach

Oh crap, sorry you guys. I misread when EOD was and didn’t get a vote in.

Just out of curiousity, who would you have voted?

@fubbleskag

thank you; I knew I’d read it somewhere but couldn’t find it for some reason (this motivated me to add a new bookmarklet to my collection of mafia-related post filters). also, I actually predicted to myself that if this had been previously asked, it would be you that pointed it out.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Could you share your thoughts on Astral Rejection?

@septimus

I’d like to hear experienced players comment on the following hypothetical scenario. Suppose A and B are tied and A moves his vote to Lynch B at the last minute; then C comes in the final seconds to vote A; B loses the tie-breaker, is Lynched, flips Town. Now, A will come under Lynch pressure. Suppose he is Lynched and flips Scum. Will this give C excellent Town cred? Or will Townies worry it was all a Scum show?

Both? We’re well used to scum bussing their teammates so we’re likely to lean Town on player C while maintaining a niggling suspicion that it was a bus or setup, fortunately there’s more than a single vote to judge a player by.