Mafia V: The Cult of Sekham

The Game Room
581

Seriously, Pleonast. Doesn’t that clip-board get heavy? You’re actually expecting this rag-tag bunch to deliver a cleanly wrapped consensus on Day 1?

You were the first to vote for anyone, which when coupled with your unvote put you under scrutiny of a number of players, a situation that Diggit also found himself in shortly thereafter.

You then go on to “make an example” out of sachertorte for his persistent discussions of possible investigator strategies. That is, until you unvote him and set your sites on Malacandra.

So by boiling down the essence of your approach, you seem to have some sort of tight schedule you want us all to keep (independent of the game clock), you have a list of apparent cardinal sins that you feel inclined to try and enforce, and the only conversation you seem to be happy with or encouraging toward are conversations that end in votes, even if that means switching those votes numerous times in the first 1/3 of the day.

I find plenty of room in there for muddying the waters, discouraging discourse, and priming the pump for future manipulation.

So here’s my required vote, a little early. Vote Pleonast. Can I get extra credit?

582

This post, from a few pages back, keeps bugging me.

[QUOTE=Mtgman]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned, and I think we should, would be the night kill math. How do we interpret a night with just one kill? No kills? Three kills? How do we detect the recruitment? These are going to be key questions. I’ll think about them a bit and post my thoughts later.

[/QUOTE]

So at the time Mtgman makes this post, the discussion about the Oracle and the Apprentice seemed to be dying off a bit (it wound up rising from its grave and taunting us yet further, but still). So here is a chance for Mtgman to actually come in and, I don’t know, analyze someone’s posts, accuse someone of being scum, cast a random vote (although by that time he had disavowed random voting on account of no one wanted to do it), something.

Instead, he wants to talk about the night kill math. This bothered me the very first time I read it, and I couldn’t quite articulate why. But I think I’ve finally figured it out. This suggestion actually is wildly anti-town - though whether maliciously so or foolishly so I’m not sure - particularly given its timing. At the moment, there have been no night kills. Why talk today about how we’re going to analyze them? I think putting too much thought into trying to puzzle out the night kills is generally fruitless anyway, but even if you are the type to want to talk about it after it happens, what possible benefit is there to talking about it speculatively, now?

Well, there is benefit. Just not to the town. If we sit here and chatter for two Days about how we can analyze the night kills and how to view them from a mathematical standpoint and how we’re going to interpret a given number of kills, we’re going to give the Cultists some incredibly useful information about how to plan night kills that will generate the maximum possible confusion. If we outline right now and right here how we’re going to try to guess when a recruitment has happened, the Prophet will be able to use that information to execute the recruitment in a way that will be as deceptive as possible.

I am not ready to unvote MtS, yet, not until he at least addresses my concerns about him. But Mtgman is currently in second place with a bullet.

583

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
Actually, I was just annoyed because I HAD been posting back and forth in the big Oracle/Apprentice discussion–and I stand by my assertion that if someone posting as much as myself and a few others were on your lurker radar, and yet people who’d posted less were NOT on your lurker radar, then the question is what have you and the unmentioned lurkers have to hide?

It’s a vote because it’s the most vote-worthy thing I’ve seen so far. Don’t worry, though, there’s three or four other people (as previously mentioned) who could easily say something ill-considered (or nothing at all) and swing my vote to them.

Honestly, isn’t it just as suspicious that you didn’t notice my existence, despite my contributions and dialogs, until I started pointing at you?
[/QUOTE]

Once more with feeling:

This is not about “lurkers” (notice the quotes) or post counts. It was about drawing attention to players who I felt needed to get a bit more attention.

Why are you faling to grasp this? SCL would have been on the list, but she was being noticed for not contributing much. I am sorry you feel like you were contributing and that I missed you, but the fact is… I missed you. It isn’t a personal insult. But again, I feel that the best way to find scum is to shine light into the dark corners. I just wanted to make sure you got a little attention.

Now you have gotten some attention.

584

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
This is not about “lurkers” (notice the quotes) or post counts. It was about drawing attention to players who I felt needed to get a bit more attention.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I was shining a bit more light around, then, on those poor unnoticed souls you didn’t mention.

I’m not really failing to grasp this, I’m just finding it suspicious that I went “unnoticed” despite being actively in the conversation, when people who haven’t posted or really much been posted about at all didn’t make that cut. It’s nothing personal, it’s just the only thing I have to go on.

Although Pleonast, MtS, and Mtgman are all starting to look good (by which I mean evil Sekhamites) too.

585

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
OK, I’m not sure I’m reading the same thing in Klutz’s post that you are, Zeriel, but since not even Klutz seems to care that you smudged him there (and I find that weird, him not defending himself at all), and I think you acted in good faith and not scumminess, I unvote Zeriel. I’m also not thrilled about Klutz’s “take one for the team” mentality on non-believers. That seems, to me, the kind of thing a non-believer would say to distance himself. It doesn’t strike me as cult-y, though.

[/QUOTE]

:confused:
So you VOTE for Z, then unvote him a few minutes later because the person he accused isn’t defending himself? You either don’t have any faith in your convictions or you just let fly a major scum tell.

I am going with scum

vote ArizonaTeach

And you all thought I was crazy when I posted that list.
As far as the Mal thing goes. I can’t believe that Mal would be dumb enough to make a stupid slip like that as scum. But he deserves a bop on the nose for not playing in a pro town fashion.

Bad Mal.

(ok, so the coffee has kicked in and I am feeling a bit happy, woohoooooo! :smiley: )

586

While we’re talking about math (at least we were 10 minutes ago), here’s my take.

I consider myself an intelligent person. I’ve taken a good bit of math. The problem was, I got all of my higher math out of the way as soon as I could, and finished my 3 semesters of calculus when I was about 18. That was 14 years ago. (Holy cow!) Pretty much the only thing I’ve retained since then is vague understanding of Gabriel’s Horn and how to draw hypercubes .

I simply don’t trust any math-driven suggestion or analysis posted in these games that is very complex, and most of what I have seen posted falls into that category. I honestly can’t even figure out each individual poster’s particular terminology or phrasing to even begin to try and interperet most of them.

I freely admit that this probably prevents me from being as good of a player as I could be. But I just want to get my perspective out there in case anyone ever finds themselves trying to convince me of anything with math. Don’t bother. The rest of you can feel free to toss such ideas back and forth to your heart’s content. Just know that I will continue to read them in the Peanuts “adult waawaa” voice.

587

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
Well, I was shining a bit more light around, then, on those poor unnoticed souls you didn’t mention.

I’m not really failing to grasp this, I’m just finding it suspicious that I went “unnoticed” despite being actively in the conversation, when people who haven’t posted or really much been posted about at all didn’t make that cut.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. More light is only a good thing. Some of those people I am a bit biased towards noticing because I have played with them before. Some of them posted strong analysis posts that resonated with me so I noticed them. But shine that light brother.

588

[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Seriously, Pleonast. Doesn’t that clip-board get heavy? You’re actually expecting this rag-tag bunch to deliver a cleanly wrapped consensus on Day 1?

You were the first to vote for anyone, which when coupled with your unvote put you under scrutiny of a number of players, a situation that Diggit also found himself in shortly thereafter.

You then go on to “make an example” out of sachertorte for his persistent discussions of possible investigator strategies. That is, until you unvote him and set your sites on Malacandra.

So by boiling down the essence of your approach, you seem to have some sort of tight schedule you want us all to keep (independent of the game clock), you have a list of apparent cardinal sins that you feel inclined to try and enforce, and the only conversation you seem to be happy with or encouraging toward are conversations that end in votes, even if that means switching those votes numerous times in the first 1/3 of the day.

I find plenty of room in there for muddying the waters, discouraging discourse, and priming the pump for future manipulation.

So here’s my required vote, a little early. Vote Pleonast. Can I get extra credit?
[/QUOTE]
(Color removed.)

Over-reaction, much? We need votes. Why does that bother you? Townies have nothing to lose by voting and changing their vote. Only scum need to second-guess and strategize how they vote.

Of course we should have a consensus. Would you rather we dunk someone who has only a handful of votes? That would be easy for the Cult to manipulate. And why should we wait to vote? I’d rather see the consensus develop over a few real-life days instead of being crammed in at the end of the Day. Rushed voting is easy to manipulate, too. (Although, I never have much free time on the weekends, so I do have an out-of-game reason to hurry it along.)

I’m not the only one who’s complained about the discussion over Town power roles. Are you saying I shouldn’t voice my dislike of that discussion? And if I think the discussion is scummy, why shouldn’t I vote to make a point? And if I find someone else more scummy, I shouldn’t vote for them?

I’m playing straight-forward–putting my votes where I think the scum is. I even made a nice list of who I suspected and reasons why. So everyone can see exactly where I stand and why. If all of the Town did that, our odds of catching an actual Cultist will improve dramatically.

As I’ve said before, votes aren’t valuable. It’s the analysis that it is. Please criticize the reasoning behind my votes, but voting freely is not a scummy trait.

As for “muddying the waters, discouraging discourse, and priming the pump for future manipulation”: the only discourse I’m discouraging is that over Town power roles. I’ve already stated my case against that. And it sounds like you want to discourage voting, because other than that, my posts aren’t that different from anyone else’s.

589

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
:confused:
So you VOTE for Z, then unvote him a few minutes later because the person he accused isn’t defending himself? You either don’t have any faith in your convictions or you just let fly a major scum tell.

I am going with scum

vote ArizonaTeach

And you all thought I was crazy when I posted that list.
As far as the Mal thing goes. I can’t believe that Mal would be dumb enough to make a stupid slip like that as scum. But he deserves a bop on the nose for not playing in a pro town fashion.

Bad Mal.

[/QUOTE]

Does anyone but me notice anything odd about this post?

Specifically, about the different ways NAF addresses what he perceives to be major scum tells?

590

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
:confused:
So you VOTE for Z, then unvote him a few minutes later because the person he accused isn’t defending himself? You either don’t have any faith in your convictions or you just let fly a major scum tell.

I am going with scum

vote ArizonaTeach
[/QUOTE]
Do you even read the posts? Zeriel explained his vote, Klutz didn’t even bother to defend himself, and I mentioned both of those as reasons why I dropped my vote. And two hours later after multiple postings by both the people I references in my original vote is not exactly minutes.

591

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Does anyone but me notice anything odd about this post?

Specifically, about the different ways NAF addresses what he perceives to be major scum tells?
[/QUOTE]

Talk to me storyteller, what are you seeing?

592

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
Do you even read the posts? Zeriel explained his vote, Klutz didn’t even bother to defend himself, and I mentioned both of those as reasons why I dropped my vote. And two hours later after multiple postings by both the people I references in my original vote is not exactly minutes.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, I suppose two hours isn’t really minutes. But what bugged me is that you backed off so easily. You thought you found scum, you were sure enough to place a vote and then with a single explanitory post from Z over there you decide, meh…not worth it.

Votes ain’t cheep. I know people are saying that they are, but when we are in day 9 or 10 people aren’t going to be looking at the context of your votes anymore, they will just be looking at the votes.

Also, what you did there reminded me a whole hell of a lot of what I was doing when I was scum in the pirates game. Maybe people who aren’t me can’t see that as clearly. But that was a strongly scummy move in my eyes.

593

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Talk to me storyteller, what are you seeing?
[/QUOTE]

You’re right that was way more cryptic than it needed to be. :slight_smile:

My sense was that you gave considerably more leeway to Malacandra than to ArizonaTeach in your assessment of their actions. In other words, Az did something that you regard as a “major” (which I will interpret as being synonymous with “obvious;” if this is an unfair equivalence, feel free to say so) scum tell. He got your vote.

But you say that Malacandra wouldn’t be dumb enough to make a “stupid” - again, read as “obvious” mistake if he were scum.

In other words, why is Malacandra’s “stupid” tell so quickly dismissed while AzTeach’s “major” tell earns your vote?

Am I reaching? It’s possible. But it’s worth putting it out there, I think.

594

You know, I’m not going to get into an OMGUS here, but you are so not practicing what you preach. You voted and unvoted jackal, not because of any type of defense, but because he dropped OUT. What does that have to do with whatever you thought was scummy? Also, since when is unvoting a scum tell? Seems to me a LOT of people have done it so far. Hell, two people have done it without any type of reason and were called out for it, but I don’t recall you freaking out and suddenly voting.

Or…do you think there’s some sort of alliance going on between me and Zeriel, since he already voted for you and I took my vote of him? Is this some weird sort of OMGUS payback?

595

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Does anyone but me notice anything odd about this post?

Specifically, about the different ways NAF addresses what he perceives to be major scum tells?
[/QUOTE]

That’s funny, because I marked in my notes where NAF responds to my suspicions of MtS’s overreaction to Clockwork Jackal (now Kyrie Eleison) by saying that it’s just his gaming style. His response to Mal’s scum tell seems to be along similar lines.

Dismissing scum tells based on past gaming experiences looks somewhat suspicious to me.

I need to re-read the posts made after last night before I cast a vote for anyone.

596

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Votes ain’t cheep. I know people are saying that they are, but when we are in day 9 or 10 people aren’t going to be looking at the context of your votes anymore, they will just be looking at the votes.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, votes are cheap! Especially on Day 1. Why wouldn’t they be? There’s almost no evidence to go on at this point. Players should be open to persuasion and changing their vote. That’s how we’ll build a consensus.

Players ignore the context of votes at their own peril. In fact, mis-interpretation of previous votes is a typical scum tactic. So always check why someone voted; don’t be overly swayed by simple vote summations.

Why should Townies be reluctant to vote?

597

Ok, I’m officially baffled. Can we get a quick huddle, since we all seem to be online, real quick Pleonast and storyteller0910? We’re at opposite ends of the spectrum as to what should be done on Day 1 and I think we should either figure each other out or agree to disagree.

Here’s my stance. This is a game of information. There is a disparity between the information posessed by both groups. But information gained by dubious means is not reliable and can, in fact, be dangerous. Establishing a type of epistemology(a formal system by which we can gain information with a good confidence level, the scientific method is an epistemology), whether it is transparent to the Cultists or not, gives us confidence in any information we do gain. The Oracle has an epistemology(called revelation) by which he/she can accurately learn information, but the rest of us don’t. Using subjective things like “scum tells” or “flying under the radar” are all well and good, for individuals, but this is a cooperative game. The Cultists are a team, and the town should be too. By using transparent reasoning processes we can also spot those who are trying to buck the system. Those trying to buck the system are probably Cultists because they have reason to go against the pro-town strategy/epistemology we define, they have a different goal, and they have information already which may throw their calculus off when assimilated into a matrix of what the town knows.

Let’s take the specific example of discussing the math behind Night kills. If we discuss it and the various possibilities for each post-Night state, then we narrow the avenues of investigation on the following Day. Moreover, we narrow it in a way not easily controlled by the Cultists. The rules governing Night kills are set by the moderator, and the Cultists, et. al. have to play by those rules. This is an area they can’t really manipulate because the only thing they could do is forego their night kill, or a conversion, but that gives away information too. If we know the possibilities and combinations then we gain reliable information. Information is, nearly, everything in this game.

The discussion of the Apprentice and Oracle is valuable to the town because it helps establish concrete methods by which we can evaluate any breadcrumbs which may be dropped, especially by the Apprentice, and determine how reliable they are. Does anyone want a repeat of MII’s Beat-Cop slaughterfest? If we could find a way, perhaps using some sort of cryptology, to convert the Apprentice into a fully-powered Oracle, that would really tilt the scales in our favor. I’m dubious about this as of now because I don’t see a way to pass this information securely. I don’t see how the Apprentice could encode a message with info known only to them and the Oracle. As far as I know the only data point they both share is the Oracle’s name. Since there are only thirty players it would be vulnerable to a brute force attack where the Cultists try every user’s name as the decryption key and the one which works, bingo, there’s the Oracle. Maybe I’m missing something, but I think that is pretty risky. I think the best strategy is for the Oracle and Apprentice to stay alive as long as possible and do a big reveal after a few Day/Night cycles(after which they live only as long as the Priest can protect them). Dropping breadcrumbs, while nice, is risky too.

In case this isn’t enough to jumpstart discussion between the three of us, what about the case I mentioned earlier? Should the town refrain from discussion of possible Cultist strategies in case we hit on one they haven’t thought about and which would be more effective than the ones they planned to use? If not, why is that case different than discussing the possible strategies of the town’s power roles?

In any event, I think you, both Pleonast and storyteller0910 are placing way too much emphasis on Day 1’s dunk. Data talks, bullshit walks. Discussions are tiny bits of data buried among tons of bullshit. Voting patterns and kill patterns, those are data. I’d rather let Day 1 be a bad dunk and get some real data than dig through piles of bullshit to ferret out “scum tells” or various vibes like “not being helpful” or “under the radar”. Please note, NAF, and other real-life Werewolf players, this is not how I operate in face to face games. There I’m all for heating it up on Day 1 because there are SOO many tells a person can give off when you’re face to face which make it easier to spot scum. But online? Data, data, data.

Enjoy,
Steven

598

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
You know, I’m not going to get into an OMGUS here, but you are so not practicing what you preach. You voted and unvoted jackal, not because of any type of defense, but because he dropped OUT. What does that have to do with whatever you thought was scummy? Also, since when is unvoting a scum tell? Seems to me a LOT of people have done it so far. Hell, two people have done it without any type of reason and were called out for it, but I don’t recall you freaking out and suddenly voting.

Or…do you think there’s some sort of alliance going on between me and Zeriel, since he already voted for you and I took my vote of him? Is this some weird sort of OMGUS payback?
[/QUOTE]

It is not unvoting that is a scum tell, it is placing a vote and then backing off at the first hint of conflict. It plays into the theory that fluid postulated and that I agree with, scum will post and vote but try to stay out of the towns way. It’s the best way to stay under the radar.

You are reaching like crazy with the OMGUS payback idea.

As far as Clockwork goes, I was not about to have an early vote on someone that wasn’t in the game. It isn’t fair to the person taking over the role. Sorry that is how I feel. It is a strike against Kyrie in my eyes, and if Clockwork had subbed out at the end of the day I might feel differently, but there are other scum out there.

599

[QUOTE=Pleonast]
Yes, votes are cheap! Especially on Day 1. Why wouldn’t they be? There’s almost no evidence to go on at this point. Players should be open to persuasion and changing their vote. That’s how we’ll build a consensus.

Players ignore the context of votes at their own peril. In fact, mis-interpretation of previous votes is a typical scum tactic. So always check why someone voted; don’t be overly swayed by simple vote summations.

Why should Townies be reluctant to vote?
[/QUOTE]

Why should a townie be reluctant to vote? Because they don’t want to be jumped all over by various people picking apart their stated reasons. Intellectually they may be able to understand it’s just a game and we’re talking strategy, but it sure feels like a conflict and conflict is not comfortable. The whole “Vote and justify it to my satisfaction or else you’re scum” vibe some posters are giving off is really disconcerting. We’ve got a couple real life days left here. Also, experienced players really should know better than to get this hyped up over Day 1’s dunk.

Enjoy,
Steven

600

I have to say, NAF I find this:

[QUOTE=NAF]
So you VOTE for Z, then unvote him a few minutes later because the person he accused isn’t defending himself? You either don’t have any faith in your convictions or you just let fly a major scum tell.

I am going with scum

vote ArizonaTeach
[/QUOTE]

Very odd as well, considering both Pleonast and Diggit Camara did the samething, I called them on it, and nary a peep from you.

Combined with what Storyteller said here:

[QUOTE=Storyteller]
My sense was that you gave considerably more leeway to Malacandra than to ArizonaTeach in your assessment of their actions. In other words, Az did something that you regard as a “major” (which I will interpret as being synonymous with “obvious;” if this is an unfair equivalence, feel free to say so) scum tell. He got your vote.

But you say that Malacandra wouldn’t be dumb enough to make a “stupid” - again, read as “obvious” mistake if he were scum.

In other words, why is Malacandra’s “stupid” tell so quickly dismissed while AzTeach’s “major” tell earns your vote?

Am I reaching? It’s possible. But it’s worth putting it out there, I think.
[/QUOTE]

Bumps you backup the list. I can also see more and more why I was so hoodwinked by Storyteller in M2. I agree with to much of what he says!

However, my choice is again between the 4, with Pasta being dropped and Arizona teach potentially being added to make it 5. I will have to re-read to ensure he did what you (NAF) said he did (unless you would like to provide links).

[QUOTE=NAFVotes ain’t cheep. I know people are saying that they are, but when we are in day 9 or 10 people aren’t going to be looking at the context of your votes anymore, they will just be looking at the votes.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with this however, regardless of what Pleonast may say.

On preview: mtgman, what is the point of that big ol’ post? Its that data is good? And you say breadcrumbing is dangerous? Maybe so, but necessary.