Mafia V: The Cult of Sekham

The Game Room
761

[QUOTE=MonkeyMensch]
sachertorte, with respect to your request to re-read your previous post #633 I went back and re-read it. In it you admit to perhaps going on too long about a bad possible first day stratagem. That very thing is part of my suspicion.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I would like to emphasize though that I don’t think the idea is a bad one. I’ve come to understand why others do, but I disagree. And I understand now why people don’t want to talk about it.
It’s taken me a while to accept that people aren’t going to agree with me; I’d just like to have my right to hold my point of view respected. If it takes a dunking to do that, then fine by me. I’m probably better suited for the forbidden thread anyway.
I’m in the minority, I understand that. All that I ask is that town look at my actions this gameday with the understanding that I truly believe my idea is pro-town. I don’t expect anyone else to think like me, but I do.

762

[QUOTE=Mtgman]

I do find it curious that he included that caveat, and I find his strong reaction to my meta-analysis annoying(particularly the repeat characterization of it as really bad for the town).

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it can be annoying when you keep offering these from-on-high pronouncements about how the town can guarantee a win if they’d just listen to your brilliant theories, and other players point out the flaws in your approach. Your intolerance to dissent is frustrating.

I was under the impression that the Oracle was, except in the case of the Prophet, infalliable (ie, that he would identify the Cultist as a Cultist and the generic nonbeliever as a generic nonbeliever). Somehow I grasped the idea that the Apprentice would get fuzzy readings but not that the Oracle would do the same.

763

[QUOTE=sachertorte]
Thanks. I would like to emphasize though that I don’t think the idea is a bad one. I’ve come to understand why others do, but I disagree. And I understand now why people don’t want to talk about it.
It’s taken me a while to accept that people aren’t going to agree with me; I’d just like to have my right to hold my point of view respected. If it takes a dunking to do that, then fine by me. I’m probably better suited for the forbidden thread anyway.
I’m in the minority, I understand that. All that I ask is that town look at my actions this gameday with the understanding that I truly believe my idea is pro-town. I don’t expect anyone else to think like me, but I do.
[/QUOTE]

I understand, and obviously so does Blaster Master and a couple others, what your goal was. It has been done before, and is a regular exercise on the mafiascum.net boards. Whenever someone puts together a new game framework there is discussion of if it is vulnerable to breaking strategies. Some discussion along these same lines was held in the Backseat Hitmen companion thread to the MII game on the SDMB. Chronos and I critiqued a ruleset proposed by Pleonast, including finding at least two breaking strategies for the original ruleset.

One of the simplest breaking strategies is “what happens if everyone mass roleclaims.” All kinds of interesting things(well, interesting to those who enjoy game theory at least(and probably most)) happen when those kinds of analysis is done, BUT, as has been beaten into my head, this isn’t the time or place to discuss them. We need to be playing the game, not the metagame.

Enjoy,
Steven

764

[QUOTE=Mtgman]
I understand, and obviously so does Blaster Master and a couple others, what your goal was. It has been done before, and is a regular exercise on the mafiascum.net boards. Whenever someone puts together a new game framework there is discussion of if it is vulnerable to breaking strategies. Some discussion along these same lines was held in the Backseat Hitmen companion thread to the MII game on the SDMB. Chronos and I critiqued a ruleset proposed by Pleonast, including finding at least two breaking strategies for the original ruleset.
[/QUOTE]
(A modified version will be Mafia VI after this game is completed.)

I’m following along, but don’t have as much time as yesterday. I don’t see a reason to change my vote from Mal at the moment. I’ve stated my suspicions of others earlier, and may switch my vote later if no one else things Mal is scummy.

765

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
my second post included the phrase “I can’t believe I missed that on my first read-through today” for precisely that reason. =P
[/QUOTE]

Thanks. My misunderstanding then – I thought you were referring specifically to my question about dunking the Apprentice rather than the entire post. My vanity is salved. :smiley:

766

I answer your specific questions about how to formulate a pro-town strategy which can be executed in the open, and I’m intolerant of dissent? Acting from-on-high? Why so defensive? I haven’t even so much as FOS’ed you(aside from my joke on page 1). If you think metagaming is a bad approach, as do several others here, then just say so. As Queuing, Idle Thoughts, and others have done.

Much of my theory was produced in response to your questions and calls for examples. I hardly see why I should be faulted for trying to discuss the topic with someone who seemed interested. If you viewed them as annoying pronouncements from-on-high then you could have either ignored them, they weren’t getting much traction anyway, or said you didn’t see value in it and left it at that. Saying you didn’t see value, but were open to suggestions and that I should provide some seems to indicate that, well you wanted me to provide some. Now you tell me you’ve been frustrated that I answered your questions. Fair enough, I’ll avoid doing that in the future.

Enjoy,
Steven

767

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
I gave my reasons for voting for you, and they’re valid, not irritation. You are one suspicious guy. I also never voted for you for lack of particpation in the other games, so how is this a grudge on my part?
[/QUOTE]

Fine, then it’s not a grudge. I still dont totally buy that you’re not annoyed, but I conceed that grudge is not the right word.

Pish posh. The only thing we learn from is death, and all of the contributions so far have been nothing but futile plans, rule questions, and pointless bickering. Speaking of contribution, you still didn’t answer my question. How should I meaningfully participate in Day One? What kind of miraculous wonder post do you want from me?

While you posted more words, I dont know if it was more evidence. Was it not correct that NAF posted an inaccurate list of lurkers? That’s beside the point though, the point that my performance as a pirate in the last game should have no bearing on this current game. I role-played in M2 and I was town, I role-played in M4 and I was scum. I’m role-playing again in this game, so that makes you suspicious? Now that I’m more familiar with the game, I can definitely roleplay and help the town out. If I had done days of fluff and purposely lurked more, I could see your irritation (the caps betray you), but I think your line of reasoning is totally silly after just halfway into day one, and it’s possibly sinister.

You know your plan to get me has failed, and now you’re backpedalling. You had a chance to get me, but if you push any harder you fear a backlash, so you’re being nice. Typical scum faux-friendliness.

Until I have more information to go on, Vote ArizonaTeach.

Nairu bless us!

768

Offhand: I recognize that stress is a good way to force a reaction from people, but some of you guys really need to ease up on the recreational pharmaceuticals or something.

769

[QUOTE=Mtgman]
I answer your specific questions about how to formulate a pro-town strategy which can be executed in the open, and I’m intolerant of dissent? Acting from-on-high? Why so defensive? I haven’t even so much as FOS’ed you(aside from my joke on page 1). If you think metagaming is a bad approach, as do several others here, then just say so. As Queuing, Idle Thoughts, and others have done.

Much of my theory was produced in response to your questions and calls for examples. I hardly see why I should be faulted for trying to discuss the topic with someone who seemed interested. If you viewed them as annoying pronouncements from-on-high then you could have either ignored them, they weren’t getting much traction anyway, or said you didn’t see value in it and left it at that. Saying you didn’t see value, but were open to suggestions and that I should provide some seems to indicate that, well you wanted me to provide some. Now you tell me you’ve been frustrated that I answered your questions. Fair enough, I’ll avoid doing that in the future.

Enjoy,
Steven
[/QUOTE]

OK, look. You posted that you found my strong reaction to your analyses “annoying” (and particularly my characterization of your analysis as bad for the town). I think your analysis is bad for the town; that’s dissent. My dissent caused you to lash out at me as “annoying;” one of us is behaving defensively in that model, but I don’t think it’s me. I am frustrated because your response to people who disagree with your ideas seems to be this high-handed implication that they’re incapable of understanding your ideas. Not because you “answered my questions.” What a ridiculous mischaracterization of my position!

And if you use that mischaracterization as an excuse to avoid questions, well, then that’s either scummy or crappy game play.

All of that said, I’m not going to get drawn into an extended argument with you. That, I know for sure, would be detrimental to the town. So: we disagree on the value of the sort of analysis you were doing early in the Day. Neither of us has to be right about this. Truce?

770

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
Offhand: I recognize that stress is a good way to force a reaction from people, but some of you guys really need to ease up on the recreational pharmaceuticals or something.
[/QUOTE]

Or just share them. Level the playing field and all… :smiley:

771

[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

This just strikes me as a scummy hit-and-run out of context twisting of my words, and it gets you my vote.
[/QUOTE]

Seriously? First, let me say that I’m a little suspicious of that crickets chirping guy. He’s been lurking way too much, and his posts contain little of value.

I honestly didn’t realize that you were expecting some sort of response from me. I read your post as a clarification of your earlier statements that stood on its own. In any case, I’m not sure that I see how you think you were words were twisted. You said:

I think it’s reasonable to read a desire to avoid townie bandwagons in those words. My only point, and it was a small one, was that any bandwagon for a townie that formed around an admittedly random vote would be immensely useful. If I cast a random vote, for say, USCDiver, assuming for the moment that he’s not scum, and five or six people leap to the forefront and say, “yeah, I really like that random vote. Makes sense to me. Vote USCDiver,” then we spend the next five or six days stringing up a group that is likely largely composed of scum, at the cost of one townie. That’s a good trade.

We’ve had similar discussions in earlier games. I’m a fan of Chicago-style voting: vote early, vote often. Get those votes out there and let people know what you’re thinking. I regard my vote as a running indicator of whom I find most suspicious. I think you’re a bit more reserved.

But I’m still not seeing where I misunderstood you, or twisted your words, or for that matter, what you were looking for me to respond to.

772

Before I start out, I’d like to say…Uh, guys? From what I remember reading, The Apprentice cannot be recruited. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I seem to remember reading at the beginning for that role so wouldn’t that change viewpoints on it considerably? I mean I saw a lot of people saying that role is useless and opting, even, to maybe dunk it or kill it or sacrifice it due to thinking this. But if it can’t be recruited, well, would that not change your viewpoints on it?
That being said, time to catch up some..

[QUOTE=Captain Klutz]
Dang, you’re right, the Alchemist also investigates as non believer. So yes, the Alchemist can’t be confirmed.

But my point still stands: how much credence can you give to a claim of Alchemist/non believer?
[/QUOTE]

Well, not much probably, but I think it’d be foolish to at least not consider it when/if the time ever comes up, because as far as I can see, the Alchmist, for off of his/her greedy ways, could possibly be an advantage to town.

shrugs Just saying that I’d rather just focus on trying to find the cultists and maybe the Psychopath if and when s/he is activated and leave a bigger window of a win open for town if at all possible.
Welcome, Nava, to the game.

[QUOTE=Kyrie Eleison]
And then what? Do we lynch the Apprentice that day and the Avatar the next? Don’t forget, the Apprentice knows who the Oracle is, and is subject to recruitment.
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, are you sure about this? From what I remember reading, neither the Oracle or Apprentice is recruitable to scum.

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
Finally, isn’t it a lot suspicious that Kyrie Eleison immediately jumps to kill the Apprentice rather than protect the Apprentice? Given the options town has for protective roles (Priest, Disciple, and to a small extent Alchemist), I can’t believe I missed that on my first pass through the thread this morning.
[/quote]

Snipped.

Yes, but from what it seems (see his quote and my reply above), he’s thinking that the Apprentice could be recruited, and thus be a danger to the Oracle. From what I’ve read, I think he’s wrong.

[QUOTE=Scuba_Ben]
Added after post (I had to stop myself from editing the post): I see that Come…HaveCookies voted for Kyrie Eleison in #750, so I will have to check updated vote counts before I finally vote.
[/QUOTE]

Do this all you like, but I don’t know why it would possibly change your vote. Just vote who you think or feel is scum rather than basing it on numbers. This is Day one…after today and as we go on, it’s better more and more to go back and then see how people voted. But for now, well, I’d go with my gut. YMMV but it’s something to think about.

773

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
Before I start out, I’d like to say…Uh, guys? From what I remember reading, The Apprentice cannot be recruited. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I seem to remember reading at the beginning for that role so wouldn’t that change viewpoints on it considerably? I mean I saw a lot of people saying that role is useless and opting, even, to maybe dunk it or kill it or sacrifice it due to thinking this. But if it can’t be recruited, well, would that not change your viewpoints on it?
[/QUOTE]

It looks like the Apprentice can be converted to me…

–FCOD

774

The Apprentice CAN be recruited. The Oracle, Priest, and Disciple can’t. The Apprentice loses all powers once recruited, but the fact does not change that they know the identity of the Oracle.

775

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
Well, not much probably, but I think it’d be foolish to at least not consider it when/if the time ever comes up, because as far as I can see, the Alchmist, for off of his/her greedy ways, could possibly be an advantage to town.
[/QUOTE]

Dangit…I mean all. For ALL of his or her greedy ways. :smack:

776

Damn you, FCOD! shakes fist

777

[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Damn you, FCOD! shakes fist
[/QUOTE]
Bwahahahaha! FCOD strikes again!

–FCOD

778

[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts]
Before I start out, I’d like to say…Uh, guys? From what I remember reading, The Apprentice cannot be recruited. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I seem to remember reading at the beginning for that role so wouldn’t that change viewpoints on it considerably? I mean I saw a lot of people saying that role is useless and opting, even, to maybe dunk it or kill it or sacrifice it due to thinking this. But if it can’t be recruited, well, would that not change your viewpoints on it?
[/quote]
Neither the Apprentice nor his role model are immune to recruiting. If they were then the role descriptions wouldn’t state they lose their powers when converted.

Both role descriptions contain that statement.

Yes, the Oracle is also vulnerable to recruitment.

779

Wow was I way off. I was under the impression neither of the four (P, D, O, A) or the monks could be recruited.

Looks like I was wrong on two.

You’re right, FCOD.

780

[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
The Apprentice CAN be recruited. The Oracle, Priest, and Disciple can’t. The Apprentice loses all powers once recruited, but the fact does not change that they know the identity of the Oracle.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, actually the Oracle CAN. I was under the impression that NONE of those four could…but the only two that can’t are the Priest and the Disciple.