Manny, Pedro, what the hell are you thinking?!?

The BBQ Pit
21

The whole night was embarassing.

I guess the bullpen thing was a “fan” jumping into the Yankee bullpen. I watched it silently, couldn’t hear any commentators, but I was left with the impression that the jumper got himself mugged by not only the bullpen, but stadium security.

I agree, Clemens did nothing wrong. I don’t think he even got involved in anything more that shouting “Fuck you” to Ramirez. On a mild rant note, why was he allowed to take warm-up pitches during the umpire conference?

As much as I hate to say it, I hope Grady Little benches Ramirez tomorrow as part of what I hope is much larger punishment for today’s actions. I don’t think his half-assing it to first or in the outfield will be missed much. As far as Pedro, he should be fined heavily by the team, and that money donated to a charity of Zim’s choosing. MLB should fine Manny and Pedro heavily, and give Zim a token fine. Even if he did thow a punch, what possibly could have been behind it, with a plate in his head, and two knee replacements? What Pedro did was unwarranted and inexcusable.

( I saw Pedro’s gesture. I thought nothing of it. It seemed to be a “think” or “use your head” kind of gesture, as in “Why would I throw at him to load the bases” sort of excuse…)

That being said, I stand by my prediction of Sox in Six. But I won’t be real proud of it…

22

IMHO, they all should have been thrown out. But Pedro should have been thrown out first (in the top of the fourth), and that would have saved a great deal of grief in the bottom half of the inning.

It’s awfully bad, in the first place, to throw behind a batter. Why? Because the natural reaction of a batter, when thrown at, is to back up to get out of the way. Pitcher throws behind batter, batter backs up into the throw. Nasty. IMHO, if a pitcher throws behind a batter, his ass should be out of the game. MLB isn’t there yet, but hopefully it will be, one of these days.

But still, the moment Pedro started gesticulating to suggest he might throw at someone else, making it clear to all the world that (a) he’d thrown behind Garcia intentionally, and (b) he wasn’t the least bit sorry about it (not to mention © he might do it again next inning), he should have been tossed.

Zim should have been tossed for sheer stupidity, if nothing else. Plate in his head, or no plate in his head, the Gerbil should have had the sense to (a) leave the bench-clearing brawl to men a few decades younger than himself, and (b) if he had to be there, to just amble around and get in the way of anyone actually trying to fight, rather than trying to start one himself. He’d deserve honorary mention for a Darwin for this, if his reproducing days weren’t long past.

And Pedro should have been tossed again, for handling Zim a lot more roughly than necessary. Sheesh, all he had to do was block Zim’s punches with his nonpitching hand. Throwing him to the ground was outrageous and uncalled for.

I’m rooting for the Red Sox, and against the Yankees. But I think Pedro should be suspended for the remainder of the postseason.

23

Pedro is just a jerk (and I have no doubt that he has gone headhunting). Clemens is a smart jerk. He has very good control. Yes, balls do get away from pitchers, but do you really think that pitch was an accident? He deliberately threw high and tight; enough to guarantee a reaction, not enough that they can reasonably toss him, and almost certain to get into the Red Sox heads.

As for Don Zimmer, I certainly hope that he’s OK, but you can’t attack someone (especially a hothead like Martinez) in the heat of a bench clearing incident and expect them to simply and calmly step out of the way, even if you are 72 years old.

24

Then Don Zimmer should not be starting fights with 30 year old men who can kick his ass. If Zimmer had been anybody BUT a 70 year old fat insane man, he would have had the everloving SHIT beat out of him, quite rightfully, by the Sox bench. Pedro tossed him out of his way, so as not to get punched. That’s all.

Now, as for Pedro: If he threw at Garcia, it was a stupid move. However, let’s examine the facts: There were 2 runners on base. It is the ALCS. He had no reason to throw at Garcia. Pedro has almost never thrown at the head in the past (Pedro hits lots of guys intentionally, but he usually goes for the ass or back) And he hadn’t thrown a fastball for the previous 2 innings, likely because he didn’t feel he could control it.

So he throws a fastball to Garcia, and it gets away, and hits him. Garcia overreacts. Everyone overreacts. Pedro looks at Posada and points out, quite rightfully, that “If I was going to hit someone in the head, I’d hit them in the fucking head!”

The next inning, Roger throws high (not tight), Manny overreacts like the asshole that he is, the shit hits the fan, and Zimmer decides to throw a punch at a player (the only punch thrown in the altercation, that I could see), gets lightly (as lightly as you can toss a 300 pound guy with bad knees at a full sprint, anyway) tossed aside, and the game continues.

To claim that Zimmer is not a piece of shit for throwing a punch when nobody else had is just ridiculous. He knows better.

25

That is crap, Flymaster.

Clemens pitch was completely routine.

The responsiblity for that mess lies with Pedro, Ramirez and later Zimmer.

26

I’m moving from Yankees in 7 to Yankees and 5.

I highly doubt they will lose another game to these rank amateurs.

27

This is just to show that you just can’t fuck with Clemens with mind games. Just hit what the guy pitches. The fish and the care bears, take note.

Also, Pedro can take care of himself, too. He didn’t uranage Zimmer, or some nonsense like that; he just gently tossed him aside in a good self-defense move. The game needs more pitchers like that.

The umps ruled no harm, no foul in that BBQ. They made the right call.

Ramirez bitching over a pitch eye high over the plate: That was just embarassing for all batters.

I am more convinced than ever, esecially from the NLCS, that throwing hard inside, and throwing a Randy Johnson special sometimes, is a necessity in today’s game. The umpires should be giving out the Field of Dreams warning, “You better watch out or he’s gonna hit your head.” Pitchers need to take back the game anyway they can, or they might as well throw batting practice pitches.

28

Clemens’ pitch in question was a high fastball, around throat high. If the strike zone extended that high, it would have been a strike. It was in not a brushback, a head hunt, or anything more than an attempt to get Manny to chase a bad pitch for strike three. It was over the plate, but high.

And then when things finally settled down, 18 minutes(?) later, Ramirez takes a pathetic wave at a ball that was 6" outside, and slinked back to the bench.

29

Latest news on Fox tele – the fellow in the bullpen was allegedly a Red Sox groundskeeper who cheered a Boston play, and 2 Yankees allegedly jumped him – the newscaster said the guy has cleat marks on his arms and back…

30

Umm, yeah. That’s what I said…

"The next inning, Roger throws high (not tight), Manny overreacts like the asshole that he is, "

Roger is (as much as it pains me to say this) blameless, Pedro, IMHO, didn’t do a WHOLE lot (I don’t think he was trying to hit Garcia), Manny was an asshole who overreacted, and Zimmer was just a fucking punk.

31

The latest on the bullpen fiasco:

Two Yankees to be charged with assault

32

I think it’s in here, somewhere.

33

Remember your audience here, Flymaster. You’re talking to a large number of people who talk here on the boards (under a protective shield of anonymity) in ways that they would never, ever, ever dream of doing in public. :slight_smile:

That being said, Zimmer got off lucky. Pedro could have crushed his skull in a heartbeat. Then again, he probably didn’t want to hurt his hands on that plate.

34

Pedro should donate to a charity of Zimmer’s choosing?

WHAT THE FUCK?

He threw a punch at Pedro! Pedro should pay for defending himself? Just because Zimmer is old?

That’s fucking stupid.

35

Pedro was just defending himself from Zimmer. The old fuck should have stayed in the dugout.
I thought it was pretty funny when Pedro was pointing at his ear to inicate that he would put one in somebody’s earflap and it’s not like the Rocket hasn’t declared his own intentions to hit people before. didn’t he come out before a game against the giants a couple of years ago and tell the press he was going to hit Bonds?

I wish more people would throw at the Yankees. I hate the Yankees.

36

With two on and no out in a one run game in the ALCS, there is just flat out no fucking way that even a known plunker like Martinez was throwing at anybody. Garcia is a dumb shit.

Clemens pitch was just fine. Ramirez is a dumb shit.

Zimmer has been around long enough to know what happens if one rushes up throwing punches when the benches are clearing. But the gerbil has always been a dumb shit.

The groundskeeper and the Yankees bullpen are dumb shits as well.

sigh Am I going to have to root for the NL in the Series? I hope not; I would feel that I was a dumb shit, too.

37

My feelings exactly…except that I have to be a Sox fan until they’re out of the playoffs.

38

I saw that manager fight. That was just totally rediculous.

and btw, GO YANKEES!!!

39

I don’t know which stands out more here; your rationalizations or your lack of baseball knowledge.

The situation was runners on second and third with no outs and a left-hander coming up to bat, followed by a right-hander . Considering that the left-hander (Garcia) already had a hard hit and an RBI in the game and the right-hander (Soriano) has a lifetime BA of .129 against Martinez, it’s sound baseball reasoning to put Garica on base and hope to either get the force at home or induce a double play (which is what happened).

You could put the man on first with an intentional walk or by pitching around him. Or if you are Pedro Martinez and having a fit of pique because you just coughed up the lead that your team got for you in the first inning, you can just drill the batter.

Pedro’s a pitcher noted for his control (although he hits quite few guys). He wasn’t able to pinpoint his pitches as well as usual last night, but there’s a big difference between hanging curveballs or missing spots and a right-handed pitcher losing control of a heater to the extent that it ends up BEHIND THE HEAD of a left-handed batter. Up and in on the hands or mid-section is one thing, behind the head is, at best, an attempt to make a batter hit the dirt.

Overreacting is charging the mound and pummeling the pitcher after he plonks you in the calf or on the elbow. Garcia had every right to be angry. If he had, instead of ducking down and scrunching over, tried to stand erect and back away ( a common reaction to a high inside pitch), the ball would would have hit him right in the “fucking head”.

40

You don’t think that Pedro was afraid of Karim Garcia, do ya?

I’m tired of these guys whining about being hit. It’s a part of the game. Pitchers have to come inside. That means they have to drive hitters off the plate and sometimes that means hitting them.

Granted, I don’t think they should throw at anyones head. I, personally, do not think Clemens meant to hit Piazza in the head. (Has Pedro ever hit anyone in the noggin?) But very few successful pitchers who throw hard can get through season without hitting some guys. Did the guys always get mad when they got hit? Did they whine when Drysdale and Gibson hit them?