Yankee fan here.
What the hell was Zimmer thinking? I really can’t fault Pedro for defending himself. All things considered I think he would have rather not touched Zimmer under any circumstances.
Zimmer should have been ejected IMHO.
Thank Og Clemens kept his cool for once in his life.
As Garcia said after the game, he wouldn’t have had a problem if he had been hit in the thigh, but when you go for the head you’re messing with someone’s career and their life. No excuse for going after Garcia’s head, no excuse for inciting the Yankee dugout, no excuse for throwing an old man to the ground. This whole ugly incident was Martinez’ and Ramierez’ fault and the Yankees are the innocent injured party.
Oh, fuck you Yankees fans. Yeah, Pedro shouldn’t have thrown at the guy, but everything after that was just tit-for-tat. Garcia slid into Todd Walker about 5 seconds after the double-play ball was gone, and about five feet past the bag. That’s when Pedro started motioning towards the dugout.
As for Manny, that pitch wasn’t in, but…he probably didn’t know that. It’s a fucking 90 mph fastball. He sees it coming head-high and a little inside–and knows Clemens is the type to throw at guys–so he does the smart thing and ducks. So, while we all can see that it doesn’t end inside enough to be a threat, he’s looking at the ground when the pitch arrives and thinks he’s been thrown at.
As for Zimmer, I laughed my ass off when Pedro threw that asshole to the ground. You don’t get to take a swing at the starting pitcher for the other team and expect to come out ok, no matter how old or fat you are. When the Yankees stop sliding into our 2nd baseman, talking trash even at the plate, and throwing punches at Pedro, then we’ll talk about them being innocent.
(and as a Sox fan, I’m sad Pedro didn’t hit that guy in the 2nd. Apparently that was the spark he needed to stop throwing 85 mph breaking balls and start blowing by the Yankees with 95 mph fastballs)
Maybe Zimmer had it coming but those that say Pedro is macho tough are full of shit. Do you think he would have reacted the same way if it had been Giambi coming after him? He would have been backpedaling as fast as he could. He can be a bully on the mound but he’s a wimp off of it.
Oh and fuck you too, Myrr21!!
He was absolutely throwing at him. Throws at his head, hopes he bails. Message sent, just another ball. And if it hits him, hey, first base is open and he’s a left-handed hitter anyway.
From watching about 35 years of baseball, I have concluded that gutless punks who throw at an opponent’s head are not hoping to actually put one in the guy’s ear. They’re just sending a message, and if it happens to actually hit him, hey, no big deal. Not like Pedro’s batting or anything, no real repercussions.
And Pedro did not need to manhandle a 72-year-old guy like that.
I am a Sox fan and I agree that Pedro was throwing at Garcia. That being said, were I a Yankees fan, I wouldn’t get too indignant just yet. Clemens was the instigator of the worst intentional beaning in the playoffs of the last twenty years when he threw at Piazza. We can debate Pedro’s intentions, but he didn’t hit Garcia in the head.
Zimmer was out of line, but Pedro’s reaction was ridiculous. I really expected them both to be tossed. Tonight’s game should be interesting. If either team gets a big lead I would expect things to get completely out of hand.
C’mon. Even pitchers with exceptional control throw wild sometimes. Can anyone show me pitcher with 100 innings and NO wild pitches and hit batsman? Did you see the pitcher for the Marlins the other day? The guy who’s pitch missed by a good 25 feet?!?
Is unreasonable to assume that the pitch got away from by a foot?
BTW, I am not a Sox fan.
Also, Pedro has hit guys in the National League, too. And he’s been hit a couple of times. Do we really think he’d be more restrained if was pitching in the NL? Kevin Brown still throws inside and hits guys after spending an equal amount of time in both leagues. These guys HAVE to pitch inside to win. Which means they can’t be afraid to hit guys.
An all around disgusting display.
Zim, my man, you got off easy. Seriously, what where you thinking? You’re damn lucky you have that plate in your head or being bounced on the ground like that could have been a lot worse.
Pedro. Pedro, Pedro, Pedro. What should you have done when faced with a charging 300 lb septigenarian? Although I think that the above referenced head-bouncing was kind of harsh, I can’t say that I fault you.
Clemens is an absolute jerk. But he did nothing in this round of baseball ugliness to warrent some of the vitrol he’s getting in this thread. Give him time, Yankee-haters. I’m sure he’ll show his ass sooner or later.
Oh, and Myrr21, I understand. It’s hard living and watching baseball when the greatest team ever isn’t your team. When, in fact, your team has been under the shadow of the greatest team ever for almost a hundred years. I understand the hurt. I understand the pain. Still. . . Fuck you back. Fuck your crybaby ass all up and down Fenway Park. Maybe if Pedro had thrown at the heads of every pitcher he faced from the beginning of his career he’d not have the misfortune of playing for the Godforsaken Red Sox.
And by ever pitcher Pedro faced, I mean every batter.
OK, I’m an Orioles fan, and I dislike the Red Sox and the Yankees with equal vigor. I stand by my post, which boils down to a belief that everyone involved was at fault in one way or another. Well, except for Clemens, amazingly enough.
And even if I grant that Martinez was throwing at Garcia, which I don’t, he was not head-hunting. Garcia was bent at a 90 degree angle when the ball skipped off his shoulder. Even if he had stepped back, he would have been hit in the ribs; the pitch was not that high. If he had bent straight down, instead of twisting his back, it would have missed him completely.
I find it delightful how people who have other interpretations insist that nobody knows anything about baseball but them. I assume that in real life they must be using their knowledge and skills as managers of major league baseball teams.
I think you guys are being unfair to Zimmer. One on one, he’d have kicked Pedro’s ass, his awkward first lunge notwithstanding. In fact, he’d probably kick the simultaneous asses of Pedro and one other guy of Pedro’s choosing. Three guys, then we’re getting into iffy territory.
Agreed, which is in its own way a defense of Pedro’s actions. He could have done a number of other things in response to being charged at and having a punch thrown at him. Letting Zimmer have at him wouldn’t have turned out well for him.
This is a shame, because I would gladly bet the Yankees will take it in five at this point. Nomar can’t hit and they will be overswinging at every pitch. After all is said and done Sox fans are in for more of the same.
I must admit that I am happy to shed the lovable loser label, which will surely be retired after this series. The Sox as the new evil empire has a lot better chance of winning than they did as genial losers.
In his career, Pedro has walked 5.5 men for every hit batsman. Since coming to Boston, he’s walked 3.5 men for every hit batsman. He goes about 16 2/3 innings per hit batsman, 4 2/3 innings per walk.
For comparison:
David Wells 9 bb/hb, 41 innings/hb, 4.5 innings/bb
Roger Clemens: 9.8 bb/hb, 30.3 innings/hb, 3.1 innings/bb
Greg Maddux: 7.7 bb/hb, 36.4 innings/hb, 4.7 innings/bb
Curt Schilling: 15.5 bb/hb, 66.3 innings/hb (!), 4.3 innings/bb
Randy Johnson: 8.6 bb/hb, 21.4 inning/hb, 2.5 innings/bb
The AL as a whole had 8.0 bb/hb, 22.6 innings/hb and 2.8 innings/bb in 2003
To get to the point: Pedro Martinez, despite control comparable to or better than some of baseball’s elite pitchers and a walk rate 60% lower than league average hits batters 73% more_often than the league and practically twice as often as the other elite pitchers.
No way he hit Garcia by accident. Pedro’s a smart, calculating guy. He lost the lead and figured he might as well set up the double play while simultaneously taking Clemens out of his game. He just miscalculated. Badly.
Yankees fan here, and I, too, think everyone was at least a teeny bit at fault except for Clemens.
Let me also say I know very little about baseball.
I think Pedro meant to hit Garcia somehow, though I can concede that perhaps he didn’t mean to hit him where he did. Pedro shouldn’t be aiming for people, but I can see how Garcia could have easily avoided the pitch. I think he still has a right to be angry.
Manny overreacted, but I can also see how he could have misinterpreted the pitch. However, I don’t think he has much of a right to charge at Clemens. (BTW, did Manny drop his bat first? I can’t recall if he took it with him partway to the mound.)
Zimmer shouldn’t have charged, but the way Pedro dropped him was unacceptable. Even in self-defense. If I’m unprepared and someone charges at me, I’m gonna have my hands up, palms out in a gesture of “Hey man, I don’t want any trouble.” Pedro jerked his hands up, palms facing each other, and grabbed Zimmer by the ears to toss him down. Unnecessary. However, I can see how Pedro may not have been thinking clearly and didn’t quite realize what he was doing.
Pedro taunting the Yankee dugout was uncalled for, but I don’t think I’d personally toss him for that. From what I could tell, he was pointing at his own head, then back at someone else (I can’t tell who) and mouthing what I took to be “I’ll hit you in the (bleeping) head.” Not very nice, but he was angry and just reacting to the situation. I’d tell him to stop, but I wouldn’t toss him.
Just my oipinion, and if anyone can prove me wrong, I’ll be happy to step aside.
That’s nice. Any cites on how many of them get hit on the head? Even his two-batter Yankee-plunking earlier was just hands. Clemens, on the other hand, has gone straight for the head while in a Yankees uniform. Not to mention throwing a splintered bat at the guy…
Lemme guess, you also were a die-hard Cowboys fan and 'Skins-hater…until they went back to their losing ways?
No. Fucking stupid is being the supposed ace of your staff, pitching in arguably the biggest game in the recent history of the Red Sox, grabbing a 72 year old lumbering fat man, and tossing him to the ground in front of an already wound up benchful of Yankees. Whether Zimmer threw a punch or not, you don’t think Martinez posesses the reflexes to get out of the way of a wild roundhouse left thet would have reached him quicker if it was mailed? And it’s not like he didn’t see Zimmer coming after him from halfway accross the field. The only thing it seems Zimmer can sneak up on is a buffet. Pedro has to keep himself out of this situation, even though he likely brought it onto himself. He dug a hole for himself an inning earlier, and has already been warned by the umpires. His best course of action would have been to stay in the dugout. I’m not stupid enough to think that this situation was unavoidable, but let the others sort it out. As the leader of his team, instigator or not, two runs down or not, he has the capability to stop the bleeding, as it were. Come out and mow down the Yankee lineup (figuratively) and let the highly productive Red Sox lineup get you some run support (as it happened, Clemens had better stuff, and the Sox couldn’t really put anything together). Sure, you will come off as a coward for not getting involved, but you’re already an asshole for starting the shit in the first place.
So, no, I don’t think it’s fucking stupid for Grady Little to fine Pedro $10,000, and donate it to some charity Zimmer supports. Sort of a “Hey, Zim, while I can’t apologize on behalf of my pitcher, I acknowledge that the whole incident was assinine and started with my player, and regret that it happened on behalf of my team.” It would be a gesture of sportsmanship that was sorely lacking from the home team yesterday.
And, yes, tonights game is shaping up to be an absolute war if Boston gets behind early.
What pitch were you looking at? That pitch was way up and in, as in, oh, a bit behind Garcia’s head, or I am completely misremembering what I saw. This is silliness. I am neither a Yankees or Sox fan. Pedro was throwing at Garcia. Pedro will never admit it, of course, so you will be able to cling to the notion that it was all a big misunderstanding.
Martinez had a threat approaching at an ambling run, with the obvious intent of taking a swing at him. Yes, the threat is a 72 years old with more metal in him than a 747, but he is a threat. Behind this threat are 15 other guys who could VERY easily become an even bigger threat. Side stepping would have put one, old, threat behind him and 15 in front of him, not optimal. I agree with his actions in taking threat number one out of the situation with minimal damage using a throw down, mostly using Zim’s own momentum, as a nod toward his advanced age, while remaining up and ready for any other threats.
Taking that action series in a vacuum, I agree with Martinez’s actions.
Doesn’t make you different than anyother Yankee fan I’ve ever met Buckleberry. 
You want to fix this problem?
Get rid of the DH.
You think Pedro would go headhunting knowing his pussy ass would be up to bat in 2 innings and Clemens would plunk him like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo?
You think Roger “I’m the biggest asshole, egomanic fucknugget bitch since Ty Cobb” Clemens would throw at all the batters he has knowing that eventually his turn would come?
No fooking way.
You allow the players to pay out equal justice on the mound and in the batters box by making pitchers bat…and this lunacy stops pronto.