Monty–what ‘facts’ am I missing here? The guy is throwing every excuse in the book out there as a way to avoid doing his duty (you do remember the military has a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy which means they boot him if he says he’s gay, right?). It’s patently obvious that this guy is trying his damndest to weasel out of his commitments by trying every lame-brained excuse in the book. And now you, Monty (and to a lesser extent Otto), are contorting yourself to make excuses for him. UncleBeer provided a good example of a CO still doing his duty; this guy isn’t even trying and that’s wrong. He is facing this ridicule because he richly deserves it, every last ounce of it. I honestly don’t see how you can not be getting this because from where I’m sitting, you’re looking like the blind one.
Wabbit: The facts you are missing are that you cannot read the guy’s mind.
Got that?
You are not a mind-reader.
You are not a mind-reader.
You are not a mind-reader.
Got it now?
I am not contorting myself to make excuses for him. Read what I wrote in both this thread and the other one on this subject, but this time read for comprehension.
I am not blind. Otto is not blind. Nor are we prejudiced against the guy.
Got that?
Those are facts. Try using some in your next response.
Monty, I’m not sure we are on the same page here buddy.
My point was that if he didn’t want to kill anyone, then there were other positions he could have taken rather than saying; “I’m gay! I’ve got flat feet! I’m an only child! I need to feed my dog!”.
By going AWOL, he lessens the name of CO’s who did their duty, even though it meant increased bodily harm to themselves. (and in some cases, those around them)
Huah!
I have compassion for the kid. What we have here is what we call an epiphany. It doesn’t sound like he had a lot of direction in his life, and he signed up because there wasn’t much else to do. Now he is realizing that the Marines are not really where he should be and that he doesn’t feel comfortable with taking another’s life.
Yeah, it does sound like he is making excuses to get out. Let him go though! I certainly wouldn’t want someone in my platoon not firing their weapon under assault because they didn’t feel it was right!
To those of you condeming this guy, think if it were your son or cousin. What if it were someone that you knew that just had that “Oh Shit!” moment where they realize that they are making big mistakes. Would you call for an idiot tax on them because they made some bad decisions for themselves?
Depends on which Act and which Scene we’ve reached, Spit.
[qutoe]My point was that if he didn’t want to kill anyone, then there were other positions he could have taken rather than saying; “I’m gay! I’ve got flat feet! I’m an only child! I need to feed my dog!”.
[/quote]
Actually, your use of “I’m an only child” I need to feed my dog!" are kind of insulting, IMHO, to legitimate COs.
Let’s try this again, shall we. There are more than one type of CO. Some COs object to serving in a position which would require they bear arms; however, they will and have served, and valiantly, in a position which does not require using arms. Some COs object to any position at all in the Armed Forces. There is a range, you see, of CO.
Jeez Monty, you mean to tell me his ‘revelation’ that he’s gay isn’t a bit suspicious (or it’s timing)? Or that perhaps his realization that he was a CO might, just might (I know I know, how radical and wacky of me to even think this) perhaps be related to current events? Or how’s about the fact that he was AWOL? Does that show character to you? I grant that I can’t read his mind, but don’t these facts make you just a little suspicious of his motivations? I have no problem with CO’s or homosexuals, just malingering assholes that try to use them as excuses to weasel their way of their commitments.
It’s one thing to have an open mind, it’s quite another to be so open-minded your brain falls out. Sheesh.
And it’s another to be so damned stupid you make the comments you do absent actual evidence to confirm your suspicions, Wabbit.
Settle down there Monty - aren’t you the one that is so vehemently stepping forth as a “defender” and “representative” of the good and Godly Mormon Church? I think I’ll just sit back and watch you kill yourself here.
You are so hateful… so unkind and so unaccepting of anyone that slights you or stands up to you… yet you expect everyone to take your words and your disertation as solid fact.
You are a mean, angry individual with issues that need to be addressed away from this board.
We are all entitled to our opinion and our argument… Wabbit wasn’t being ugly. You are, often.
Blue
No, because legitimate CO’s wouldn’t resort to that.
Exactly! Which is why he could have found something, anything, to do in the Marines, rather than go AWOL.
Hey, Spit. Agreed! I never said the guy wasn’t stupid. Going UA isn’t exactly up there on the smart meter.
blueraven: WTF? What exactly is your problem? Do you have a clue as to exactly what a fact is? As to what proof is? How about as to how much of an ass you are? Who the heck are you anyway?
Hey, Monty, here is a question for you:
How aware were you made during your time both as Active Duty and as Reservist of the many positions available to a Conscientious Objector? How difficult was it for you to become aware? Did you have to know a secret handshake, or was the military more forthcoming than that in showing you the ways you could still serve your country even if you objected to physically ending someone’s life? Because I would think, given the rampant recruiting (from my perspective, anyway) done by the military, they would be all fucking about telling someone what they could do even if they didn’t want to kill someone.
Well, iampunha, having held both the MOS of 75B and the rating of PN, I’d say it was pretty easy for me to find out what the available opitions were. ISTR that that the Chaplains were also made aware of those options so they could counsel folks. If you’re interested, I can try an experiment come Monday–I’ll go to the local recruiting office and ask, “What options are available for a Conscientious Objector who does not object to serving in a position which does not require bearing arms?” What do you say?
I now recall who blueraven is: wearywitch made some bigoted comments, I called her on it, she got her “pal” blueraven to show up, blueraven made some asinine comments, wearywitch scolded her, and now blueraven is here spewing crap. It’s a failed board invasion.
p.s. Other folks called wearywitch on those comments, too. 'Twas in the Elizabeth Smart thread.
I am a member of this board, Monty. I was wondering what YOUR problem is - the whole multiple personality “gig” is getting a little boring, buddy. I do know what a “fact” is - I am a little concerned about YOUR definition of “fact” - seems a bit cloudy lately as I peruse your emotionally charged, ever-changing entries on this board. Am I an Ass? Golly, takes one to know one, and I haven’t resorted to name-calling… I’m feeling a little more like thirty than three, Monty.
Who I am is no more your business than who you are is mine. Let’s just call me “Ass-that-lurks-til-Monty’s-self-righteous-hateful-crap-makes-me-feel-like-saying-something”.
Bitter, bitter, Monty. Settle down! I understand you know everything… I’m just not sure you know anything.
Great. I got a pet. Whoop-de-doo. Anyone got some advice on how to take care of it?
Time for Monty’s meds.
Nite, nite Monty.
Get a good night’s rest.
No, I cannot read the mind of the marine in question.
BUT
I should think that while he was going through the “talk with a recruiter, read the brochure” phase of volunteering to join the USMC, it’s not unreasonable to imagine that it was brought to his attention that the Marines are Light Infantrymen with special training in Amphibious Assault, which is a, IMHO, violent profession.
I further believe that during his recruit training, what with the time at the rifle range, bayonette training, hand to hand combat training, etc… it would not be unreasonable to suspect that being a Marine involves applying some violence.
If after he completed his recruit training and decided he had issues with him taking the life of others and THEN applied for a non combatant assignment/CO status I would have no problem with this marine.
I understand that he is now a Lance Corporal. I might be wrong, but I believe that means he was promoted to Private on his graduation from recruit training and in the time since then he’s been promoted once again. This suggests to me that he has served in a competent manner.
What makes his motivation seem somewhat questionable to me are the timing of the actions he has taken. And the actions themself. As for the timing… well, I just don’t think it’s unreasonable for one to suspect that his newly discovered pacifism might just have something to do with the impending likelyhood that his unit will be deployed into harm’s way in the very near future. Maybe it was an epiphany on his part; I can’t read his mind. But there are proper channels for applying for CO status. I do not believe that going AWOL is one of them (I’ve seen UA and AWOL bandied around and am not sure which is appropriate. I think it’s possible the ultimate charge might be “Desertion and/or lessor included offenses” unless deployment orders had been issued. Then it would be “Missing A Movement and/or lessor included offenses”. Monty was a personnelman. He’s got experience in dealing with formal charges than I do and has more firsthand knowledge in these matters than I do.
And his (the marine in question, not Monty) admission that he is gay seems sort of self serving to me. He should know that this sort of statement will get him a discharge, not CO status. Again, it’s the timing of this.
So, from the information available to me AT THIS TIME, I don’t think I’m leaping to any conclusion to state that this person seems to have acted in a cowardly manner to avoid hazardous service and has no business being in the Marine Corps.
But he is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty by Court Martial. I understand that although he is under restriction, he is not in the Brig. And this is proper and in accordance with the UCMJ.
I’m not really sure what a non-combatant assignment in the USMC is, though. All Marines are considered to be riflemen first. There are no Marine Medical Corpsmen, Navy Corpsmen are assigned to Marine units. And I suspect the Navy handles GREGs (Grave Registration) for the Marines also. During the Korean War Marine cooks and clerk typists had to take to the lines.
MONTY: - OT - Wearywitch is hardly my “PAL”… and I am not a “her”. If you look carefully, she was your ally - I am not.
Ranger, I understand what you’re saying. However, I think that there is a very very distinct difference between shooting targets, no matter how life-like, and shooting actual people. For many, there is a huge disconnect. The military attempts to train people to not see the difference or overcome their reservations. I think it’s very hard on someone to condemn them for realizing that there was a difference and not wanting to be a part of it.
He acted irrationally in going AWOL. People do some really dumb stuff when they have life-change experiences. He may have thought that going to his superiors and asking would just make him be forced back onto the lines.
But we don’t know the whole story here, so only time will tell.