If by that you mean that he is innocent until proven guilty in all fora, that is incorrect. If you read Monty’s comments in the linked GD thread, you will see that upon being brought up for court martial (Monty, if I manage to fuck this up, you know what to do;)) the accused is deemed guilty until and unless proven innocent. In fact, here are the applicable quotes from the thread:
I coulda sworn I read something you wrote, Monty, about being guilty until proven innocent, but given my current state (Cold from Hell), it’s possible that words were dancing in front of my eyes.
Gosh, wouldn’t that pretty much totally invalidate the claims of those who said that it was legitimate to get out of the armed forces because one was a CO? I’ll have to think a while on that one;)
And regarding your new pet … I had some advice, but nevermore:D
Even under the UCMJ, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The court-martial doesn’t ensue until an Article 32 investigation is completed. That’s kind of like a Grand Jury investigation.
I did write that going UA is grounds for court-martial. If the Article 32 investigation concludes that there is a likelihood that the accused has committed the offense in question, then the court-martial convening authority decides whether to pursue a court-martial.
Re my experiment: No, I don’t believe that would invalidate those claims. After all, I’ve said a number of times that there are those CO who object to any position at all in the Armed Forces and that there are those CO who only object to positions which require them to bear arms.
An aside: I think I like your sense of humour. & NO! I’m not talking about the evil cold inflicting you. (<–That’s to negate whatever pun one may see in my compliment to you, so as to not misconstrue it as a “back-handed” comment.)
Hell, I’ve recited that! I am not Muslim. He was dirtbag before this happened.
**This all occurred within about 30 seconds, and was orchestrated with Legal and MP advice. They did not move on the lesser offenses, waiting for the Missing Movement charge (as I recall, that was the charge that put him in the pokey).
As I explained in the GD version of this thread, DADT means that if declarant makes a statement that s/he is homosexual or bisexual it creates a “rebuttable presumption” that the member has engaged in “homosexual conduct” prohibited by military law. The member has the opportunity to rebut the presumption and if succesful may stay in the military. To date IIRC one person has successfully rebutted the presumption. There are also “stop-loss” orders in effect, although I have heard conflicting reports as to whether gay discharges are suspended. There have been some recent high-profile discharges of Arabic linguists despite critical shortages of Arabic linguists.
Anyways, in reading the articles about this guy it has not seemed to me that he has attempted to use his homosexuality as an out (no pun intended). If his goal was simply to be discharged, he could have simply declared his homosexuality without attempting to get CO status.
Wabbit, it must be nice to have ultimate knowledge of the hearts and minds of your fellow human beings. I hope in future you will use this awesome knowledge more compassionately (or at least more responsibly) than you have here.
Finally, I shall sign off for now and marvel that Monty and I are on the same side of an issue.
The fact that you repeated what the words are to the Shahada does not make you a Muslim. For someone who recites it with intent to declare their allegiance to Allah, that is what makes someone a Muslim. That is what reciting it is.
The other violations of the UCMJ I was referring to were the assault on the individual who finally ended up in the brig. What was done to the other individuals who were also violating the UCMJ?
But, Otto, do you have your very own board stalker whose grand total of nine posts have eight posts (89%) bitching about you? Now that’s something to marvel at!
Ah, okay, thanks:) I thought I’d seen someone write “in a court-martial, the accused is deemed guilty until proven innocent” … which seemed to me to be a bit off. Good to know it was text dancing in front of my eyes. If my cold were human I’d slap it in the face for doing that to me;)
Thanks! Truth be told I think the only person who’d strain to see it as an insult is your new plaything. I didn’t get why someone would see it as backhanded until I remembered that some people, upon initially seeing my name, think it’s based on puns/humor. Fools they are:D
Lenny in “Of Mine and Man” was spectacularly bad at keeping his new pets. Do you remember why?
Iampunha, you might be confusing a Court Martial with an Article 15/Nonjudicial Punishment/Captain’s Mast. The latter trio are all pretty much the same and the issue generally isn’t guilt or innocence but “How Guilty Are You?” or “How Hard Shall I Slam You?” The maximum punishment for NJP is 45 days restriction, 45 days extra duty, reduction by one grade, and 1 months pay (spread out over 3 months). I’m not exactly sure about the amount of the fine, but I’m pretty sure they spread it out over 3 months.
If the issue was simply Unauthorized Absence (UA), or Absent Over Leave (AOL) which could mean you overslept or your car broke down on the way back to base the punishment could be less formal than NJP and a gruff “Well, don’t let it happen again.” might suffice. And I suspect the usual procedure for a violation of the DADT rule is a quiet Administrative/General Discharge.
But the Marine in question upped the ante with his declaration of homosexuality and Conscientious Objector status. And the publicity. So, he’ll probably get SLAMMED for the UA/AOL/AWOL/Desertion/Missing A Movement charge though for public relations they might go easy on the DADT thing. My guess is the lightest he’ll get off with is a Bad Conduct Discharge. And the worst is a Dishonorable Discharge and a term in a Federal Penitentiary. And since he’s gone on record as being Gay, he might not really enjoy his jail time.
Listen, some of you believe this guy–that’s fine (your perogative). However, for me to believe him I’d have to:
accept that he never realized the military was violent (in fact he’s quoted as saying he was surprised by the violent nature of the military). This is patently absurd: even if you lived in a bubble and had no contact with the outside world except for the Teletubbies and Mr. Rogers re-runs, once you got to Basic I’m thinking even a mentally challenged chihuahua would figure out that maybe violence was a fairly substantial part of what the military does and is about (what with the shooting and all). So when he made that comment he was either lying or a complete idiot–neither of which endear him to me (in fact, I’m having a great deal of difficulty seeing how anyone could be dumb enough to not know the military was violent–what the hell did he think a gun was for?–so lying is the more likely answer).
Given that it’s highly unlikely that he didn’t realize that the military was violent before he enlisted, we’re left with exactly when he decided violence wasn’t for him. It’s entirely possible that someone would join the military and have second thoughts about violence once it became likely that he (or she) would have to kill someone. I have no problems with someone that decides that they cannot, in good conscious, kill another human being (I do think they probably should of considered this before joining the military and the timing is a bit suspect but ok, people make mistakes). However, he could still serve in some capacity that wouldn’t violate his personal ethics and still fulfill the commitment he made to the Marines–this doofus did none of this. If he was someone that felt so strongly about killing that he couldn’t even be a medic, then I’m sorry but he’ll have to accept responsibility for contract he made. That shouldn’t be a problem for someone with strong convictions, however, and I’d had some respect for him if he felt so strongly about killing that he went to jail (or whatever the UCMJ judged appropriate). But he didn’t, did he? Instead, now he suddenly decides he’s gay. Now everyone with even a token understanding of current events knows about the “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” (not here to debate its merits–just stating it’s there) policy and how the military doesn’t tend to accept openly gay men or women into the ranks. So don’t try and tell me this guy didn’t know he would probably get kicked out if he said he was gay. So doesn’t it strike you as rather convenient that this guy suddenly realizes the Marines are homophobic and violent once there’s a major war on and he might be called up? Maybe you can give him the benefit of the doubt but I can’t make that leap.
I’m sorry folks, my bullshit detector went through the roof when I saw what he had to say for himself. If he wants out of his commitment-fine, anyone who goes AWOL over crap like this undoubtably is a piss-poor soldier anyway and all parties concerned would be better off with him gone. But in my book anyone that doesn’t live up to their commitments no matter how inconvenient they are really isn’t worth a glass of cold piss.
And exactly why is it so hard for you to accept the FACT, Wabbit, that some CO object to ANY position in the Armed Forces? And, yet again, you’re practicing your mind-reading skills, and failing, since nobody’s said they actually believe the guy. So far, there are folks lambasting him (you, for one), and folks who are saying “let the case be conducted based on evidence” (me, for one).
Ranger: You’ve forgotten your Army days. Depending on one’s rank, one can lose ALL of it at Article 15. Navy & the Corps limit that to one paygrade only.
I am well aware of that, and this Marine said it with the same conviction I did. He was investigated for his claims by the proper authorities in accordance with relevant procedure for months. He made the calim in August, Alpha Battery deployed in August/September, 1990, this incident occurred in December.
“Other indivuals”? By re-reading my post you may see that only one person touched him before the MP’s arrested him. And I was unaware your 20 years of faithful and loyal service in personnel and administrative billets gave you more insight into Military Law (over the internet, no less) than the Judge Advocate General Colonel and the Military Police had after weeks of discussions on this matter. Silly people, that guy didn’t need Law School and Naval Justice School, all he had to do as call Monty! I presume that you feel it is “assault” when a Jump Master nudges a reluctant Paratrooper out the door? This is the Marine Corps, not the Boy Scouts. I trust you on personnel matters, administrative functions, and MOS issues. A man’s got to know his limitations.
Which may be why he stated that he first began experiencing discomfort when forced to chant “KILL KILL KILL” in basic training. Forget to read that part?
Please copy and paste a quote along with link that states this person is unwilling to serve in the military in a non-combatant capacity. I asked for this once before and rather than provide it you continue either to assume that it’s true or deliberately lie about it.
Since you’ve obviously tapped directly into this guy’s thoughts, please enlighten the rest of us on what date he “decided” he is gay. You seem to be claiming that it was sometime between when his unit was mobilized and his filing his CO declaration, which makes for a pretty narrow window, so which day was it exactly?
There’s a fucking world of difference between “I can’t make that leap” and “this guy’s a malingerer, pure and simple.” Just because you’re incapable of believing something to be true doesn’t make it untrue.
I don’t have an objection to that, as I stated. What I have a problem with is that it looks to me like this guy has a good chance of getting off with a slap on the wrist (a dishonorable discharge has little impact in most of the civilian world) and that just strikes me as wrong. He broke his contract–he should pay and I hope the UCMJ comes up with something appropriate. In my opinion, an appropriate punishment would be for him to spend some quality time in a Graves Registration unit (which at no time did I imply was somehow less valuable than a line unit) so he can reflect on his CO status and what it really means. That’s all.
It’s all in the timing Otto: why not inform the Marines he was a CO and/or gay in Basic? Why now, in other words, after he’s been in for a year at least. Now maybe you are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt–like I said that’s your call. However, I think given the information provided in those linked articles that his reasons and timing are highly suspect. Now we can go around and around on this: you can rage I’m a goat-sucking bonehead for ragging on this asshole and I can retort you’re a pie-in-the-sky, sloe-eyed inbred for believing his story and this can go on ad nauseum. The end result won’t change our opinions so it seems like this’ll be an exercise in futility. Given the facts that I know about the case–I think he’s a malingerer. You don’t. Can we agree on that at least?
